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Whangarei hui

15 February 2005

1. Karakia (Hohepa Rudolph)/Mihimihi

2. Introductions

Paul Reynolds, Rebecca Martel, George Ria (Ministry of Agriculture & Forestry); Suzanne Doig (Te Puni Kōkiri); Livia Hollins (Ministry for the Environment); Willie and Linda Te Aho (Facilitator and minute secretary - Indigenous Corporate Solutions Limited).

3. Introductions of those in attendance

During the introductions, the following points were made:

3.1 Susan Henare

Spoke of a waterfall near where she lives (Otīria), and the waterway which is polluted and unsafe for swimming. Sue has set up a charitable trust to work to clean up the waterway and is willing to work with anyone who can help.

3.2 Matatahi George

Newly appointed liaison officer for Whāngarei District Council.

Perhaps the reason that there are not many people here is the communication between Māori and the government. It is a daunting task to build relationships. He intends to draw people together to talk.

3.3 Eileen Parore

We must look after Papatūānuku and the wai within her.

3.4 Meryl Carter

Is part of a group that has established a nursery to plant and restore riparian strips which are degraded due to horticultural activities. Education is the most important thing that we can infiltrate through schools. Teaching our Tamariki that the earth must be clean is the number one priority. They will then take a better approach to the environment than perhaps we have.

3.5 Hohepa Rudolph

I am here to welcome you into this house for this kaupapa, clean water is important for us all, and for future generations

4. Presentation (Paul Reynolds)

4.1 Background

  • The purpose of this afternoon is for us to listen to you - we have started some work and we are here to let you know what have been doing and we want to hear back from you on what should be done.
  • Paul has oversight on the MAF side of this programme
  • Paul acknowledges the importance of freshwater, and the importance of consultation with Māori
  • This programme looks at water from the mountains to the sea in a holistic way
  • Explanation of which freshwater bodies are being focused upon in this programme of action, some things are critical but not included in the programme (eg estuaries),
  • There are many dimensions to this work - social, cultural, economic
  • Water is the lifeblood of our community - we drink it, we eat from it, we make money from it, we generate energy from it, we swim in it, some of us gain spiritual enrichment from it. Therefore water must be managed wisely so that all our needs can be met.
  • Explanation of two reference groups - one was made up of 'stakeholder groups' who were consulted to bounce very early ideas around with and a Māori Reference Group (MRG) it was not representative, but was there to provide initial advice

4.2 The Water Programme of Action looks at three major issues:

  • Allocation
    • How we share it around, it is about what we use and what should stay
    • There is not enough water to meet everyone's needs and demand is going to continue to grow - and the potential for conflict is increasing
    • Wasteful use and inefficient use of water
  • Water quality
    • We know that quality is declining
    • Sme lakes are more sensitive than others, and things like intensification in farming has caused degradation
    • The mauri of our rivers is affected
  • Nationally important water bodies - water bodies that are nationally significant for some reason. Eg 'iconic' lakes such as Taupo, Rotorua

4.3 Other issues

  • The role of Central Government - which has tended to be reactive rather than proactive - though there is some good work being done in Taupo- and there needs to be some prioritisation for Central Government involvement.
  • It is critical that good work being done locally is built upon.

4.4 Possible Solutions - Ideas for a new approach? (Rebecca Martel)

(a) Providing National Direction

Some ideas are to make use of RMA provisions for national policy statements and national environmental standards (currently there are none); Government targeting where it gets more directly involved in water management - eg identifying the 'nationally important' water bodies.

(b) Central Government could become more involved

Eg in making submissions on plans, developing best practice information and sharing that information out into communities, funding, pilot programmes - such as Lake Taupo - the collaborative project to cut down nitrogen levels in the lake

(c) Working together

Water management is complex, the community needs to understand that there are issues and therefore there is a need to raise awareness of the water quality problems and that water is a scarce resource; we want to work on building relationships with Māori, and improving the appreciation of Māori cultural values in the planning and policy process.

Suzanne Doig

One action identified in the discussion booklet is 'Enhancing Māori participation' this is really about building relationships. The booklet identifies two main areas, one is clarifying issues around Māori participation in Local Government - One possible solution is for Central Government to make it clearer what Local Government what processes they have to follow in terms of working with Māori; more widely, Central Govt is looking to provide guidance for better engagement on a much wider range of issues (ie not just about water).

Some of the big issues that have emerged from the RMA review and hui like these is the poor relationships in a lot of areas with councils due to poor attitudes of some of the councils, and also capacity and capability issues for iwi to engage, and for councils. What are the local issues? What are some possible ways of addressing these issues - training? resourcing? Are there other ideas?

(d) Provide more tools

  • Current first in first served might not be appropriate anymore. The discussion booklet sets out some ideas around auctioning and tendering of water.
  • Transfer of consents and discharge permits
  • Local Government prepares plans - local authorities could be required to prepare a plan concerning water issues.

5. Discussion

5.1 Susan Henare

Supports the ideas of standards, there haven't been any in the past - would they be high?

Rebecca - we haven't worked through the details, we are interested in hearing what people think. There might be water quality targets or it might be a matter of putting forward a method for bottom lines

Suzanne Doig - There would be consultative process to develop those standards

Facilitator's Note: other hui have said the standard should be that the life in the water is well, that the water is drinkable - and that we can bathe in the water.

5.2 Michael Timoti-Hohaia

Raised a question regarding who the 'stakeholders' were.

Paul and Rebecca explained that there were two advisory groups - the Māori reference group and the other group was a diverse range of groups such as federated farmers, scientific organisations, industries

5.3 Michael Timoti-Hohaia

  • The Far North District Council has had a plan out for 3-4 years which sets out minimum standards based around ISO 14000 and ISO 9000. Māori understand minimum standards.
  • Regional council identifies minimum standards regarding the taking and discharging of water
  • Māori are stakeholders, not the just the industries who are interested in brokering and taking the resource - and who rape and pillage our rivers
  • Māori are kaitiaki and could play a more active role in determining minimum standards, collating of data, and monitoring at marae level (whānau/hapū) in their own rohe. We want to participate and to interact. Mana needs to be taken back to marae.

5.4 Lizzie Mataroria-Legg

Whanau and hapū are the kaitiaki of the awa. When we are consulted, we know that you will go away and make a plan that will not incorporate our kaitiakitanga. In essence, that plan will abolish our kaitiakitanga.

In the 1970s the buzz word was 'business' - Carter Holt offered business proposals for te hunga Māori.

35 years later, our creeks have dried up. It could be said that Māori agreed to the terms that were offered. What actually happened was that they split the hapū. In the RMA, there is an 'AEE' (Assessment of Environmental Effects) in there. That should have been done before our people took on the forestry project. CHH do not do this - when they should have.

Things seem to be going in the opposite direction for Māori. Holistic is a fanciful word, but you are giving the wrong impression when you use that word. As tangata whenua we need guidance, we are asked to make submissions, but we don't see ourselves in those submissions, the other 'interest groups' have more influence.

Our environment was clean 200 hundred years ago, we didn't have cows, I don't blame the cows, the farmers did not plan. What happens when we catch farmers who don't clean their ponds and they discharge straight into the creek, the farmers don't take notice of the rules. Those who pollute our wai are not being held accountable.

5.5 Keir Volleerleing

Iwi plans already have a greater recognition than in the past. They are only taken into account when a new plan or a plan change is being considered - then it is too late.

Iwi plans are often too broad and often fail as a useful tool - real care to be taken as to how that is done.

Capacity of Māori to effective work on regional and district plans does need to be addressed. When plans are notified - that is the beginning. Words are so important. There is an opportunity to influence through appeal process - but it is a huge expense, and time involved - and it is not resourced. He has been involved in meetings with a room full of lawyers, scientific experts and so on.

Standards - some work with Ministry for the Environment on water quality standards doesn't seem to have gone anywhere.

He has heard that there may have been a change in the language 'a/o' categories, the point being this is an environmental indicator (if the language used to describe the wai has changed in te reo Māori, the water has changed). If the water is of an acceptable quality then it is 'toona wai' if it is not then it is 'taana wai'.

5.6 Hally Toia

  • Catchment planning - all of NZ is catchments. Attended public meeting - and it seems not enough effort is going into catchment management.
  • Let us look at the source; if there is no quality there, there will not be quality along the way.
  • Auction - this word is scary. We are going down the path of property rights in water - this is unsettling.
  • We all know that water quality is declining. The qualities should be determined here, not in Wellington. Central government will set the standards at the lowest scale.
  • National direction - there are issues with that. We should determine our direction locally.
  • Concerns about transfer of discharges and consents - again the focus should be on the water first.
  • Pilot programmes - one size does not fit all, does not support unless adapted and redone to suit particular local situation.
  • Nationally important water bodies - standards need to be set on how Crown intends to identify these. In assessing this, we also need to be clear on Waitapu, Waiora.

Suzanne: we have had some advice on the issue of nationally important water bodies and accordingly the Crown has avoided trying to identify these - all water bodies are important to Māori.

Hally: each hapū identifies with awa, that is the most important water body to them. There will be no direction from Central Government that will address that.

5.7 Daryn Bean (TPK)

  • Daryn was intrigued by the talk of a New approach - what is this new approach going to look like? There doesn't seem to be any clarity about what the starting point is. Is it better drinking water for our Tamariki? What are the benchmarks across the rohe?
  • Process - decision-making - it is important that people in this rohe have representation in the decision making. It was interesting to hear the names on the Māori Reference Group (particularly the name of Waaka Vercoe who is with Environment Bay of Plenty).
  • In EBOP there is a model to ensure that there are Māori around the decision making table. This is a serious issue, TPK talks about Māori potential and we need to advance Māori potential in the area of decision making.
  • Water is an unseen element in that whole process, that people may overlook. I would have loved to have seen more people here, we need to ensure that we inform our whānau, iwi hapū so that we are part of the process.

5.8 Matatahi George

  • Agrees with previous speakers, acknowledges rūnanga and trust boards that are trying to fulfil the RMA.
  • There is a concern that a lot of this material is put on paper and disseminated to our people. The process of consultation needs to be seriously looked at. When they created my (Iwi Liaison) position, they did not know quite what to expect.
  • He recognises the frustration of some of our people. Many of our people depend on water for food sources - but the disposal of effluent is becoming a problem. There is a tendency to lean towards the disposing of effluent into our rivers. This directly affects Māoridom - and is universally unacceptable.
  • Our people need to be utilised in the planning and decision-making process - and we need to make sure that there is support for our representatives.
  • Trust boards have an important function, but our people need to come together - particularly at marae level - and support the kaupapa.

5.9 Meryl Carter

  • My question is what will be done about these submissions? Policy is written etc and farmers still breach the RMA. There needs to education at the grass roots level.
  • If water is clean, the cows will be healthier and the farmers will benefit. We can make a difference.
  • The Regional council is notable by its absence, and this is disappointing. It is good, though, to meet Matatahi and learn of his position with the Whāngarei District Council.
  • Poor relationships with councils are a problem for Māori.
  • We have had major stumbling blocks with councils but now our collaborative project (nursery/riparian planting) involves hapū, marae, schools and councils - this is rare. It is good for our whanau to have an opportunity to say these things and start being listened to. Education is the key.

5.10 Piripi Grimshaw

What implications are there for Māori who have a responsibility to manage our waterways?

Paul - this process is partly about trying to find the answer to this question - how different affected parties will interact on these difficult issues, and how they will behave.

5.11 Piripi Grimshaw

Who will resolve inherent disputes between kaitiakitanga and sustainable development? And how will it be done?

Paul - there is no magic resolution, there will inevitably be internal debates and argument.

Everyone wants to see multiple uses, but everyone wants to establish what the bottom lines are, for that use.

Piripi - that is the issue - what are those bottom lines? There is a lack of information. Who will the agency be that manages the process and/or that sets criteria? The RMA process is not proactive for tangata whenua.

The national interest outguns the tangata whenua interests (eg electricity). How do we maintain the mana of tangata whenua? I don't see anything here that is going to change the situation.

Paul - ultimately, at the highest level, these decisions will probably be made centrally, but the hope is that there will be plans at local and regional level that will be enforced. It is noted that more work needs to be done at local and regional levels to address Tangata Whenua issues.

Suzanne Doig: On the question of how to maintain mana whenua - that is one of the genuinely open questions of this process - we don't have the answer - but do you have any views on how we can change?

Piripi - it is simple - go back and ask the whanau and hapū. But this process is so short (4 weeks) can you get out and talk to all marae in this rohe - or do you expect me to do your job? If you want to know what Māori of this area think then you should get out to the marae and here them in their environment - or resource us to do the job properly. This is not proper consultation.

5.12 Marama Netana Waddell

  • Communication - you could have used Māori Radio more to communicate about these hui.
  • Māori potential - engaging whānau hapū - there needs to be more active engagement with marae.
  • Contracting services at the marae base is a really serious issue. Our people have information that is valuable to this work, and it is about time for that information to be paid for.
  • I have been to several hui like this, and for some reason after the hui, the kōrero disappears.
  • At a recent Taitokerau Māori District Council Hui they discussed the commercialisation of freshwater - is that where this is heading? If it is, we need to be more fully informed.
  • There needs to be transparency to let us know where all this is leading.

5.13 Rapaera Tepania

Rapaera supports the discussion that has taken place today.

5.14 Michelle Timoti-Hohaia

We started years ago to work with the FNDC, and we know that you have to be proactive and work cooperatively to achieve what you want to achieve.

It is important to have national direction. We have already started that journey.

Mā te wai ka ora tātou te iwi (water provides sustenance).

5.15 Eileen Parore

Eileen supports the idea of all having a say. We are all on the same side - we all, Māori and Pākehā, want good quality water for us and future generations.

It is important to do this discussion kanohi ki te kanohi (face to face).

5.16 Susan Henare

25 years ago her grandfather supported forestry for economic development - others protested against it. Now we know that forestry has caused degradation of the environment. Susan has seen many times that we need to look at the environment over the economic - other examples

  • The marina - now the tuna has been lost.
  • The prison at Ngāwhā - there is mercury in the water.

Is the economic development really worth it at the expense of the environment? We need to make our environment the priority - not economic development.

5.17 Michael Timoti-Hohaia

  • Spoke about impacts of fertiliser made at Ravensdown - how do we know whether this is good for us, given that it runs off the land into our rivers?
  • We sat down with farmers, and industry to discuss replenishing rather than harvesting, and to talk about standards and compliance, and the necessity of communication with Māori in the resource consent process. It is important to have a consultation process that whanau and hapū can participate in.

6. Reflection upon key themes

6.1 Paul Reynolds notes that he has heard:

  • That something needs to be done - inaction cannot be tolerated
  • About kaitiakitanga and how that sits alongside the RMA, and whether the processes are allowing whanau and hapū to be involved appropriately or whether their key role is being cut across
  • About environmental standards and the use of ISO 14000
  • That if we have environmental standards, they have to be high (eating bathing and drinking could be a measure)
  • That the economic focus has overridden the environmental focus
  • That the timeframe for consultation does not accommodate a marae based approach
  • That people at marae level, at a local level need to be involved in the process of making decisions
  • About the importance of catchment planning
  • About iwi plans
  • About capacity and the difficulties of understanding sheer volume of what is happening around you
  • The concerns about the possibility of establishing property rights without further and deeper information and consultation
  • That in terms of consultation processes - particularly around environmental issues and the RMA - not working for Māori
  • A strong call regarding the difference between talking about things and action - capacity, work people are actually doing, resourcing
  • The important role of educating children, and them being the advocates for a better future

6.2 George Ria

  • He taumaha tēnei kaupapa, ēngari kua puta mai he hua. (This is a difficult topic, but there have been many positives that have come out of today's hui.)
  • Education is critical.
  • How can Trust Boards, the economic base of iwi, implement kaitiakitanga in strategic planning?
  • In the Local Government Act there are some provisions that have 'teeth' and can be used to ensure that local government involve Māori in their processes. This is a tool that can be used alongside the sections of the RMA.
  • Acknowledged the role of Matatahi George on the council - it is a difficult job - similar to that of Māori in Central Government.
  • What is new in this approach is a move away from economic focus as the predominant focus, but taking more account of other issues.
  • You may not see the fruits of this kōrero in your lifetime, but the kōrero is important and you will see the fruits in time.
  • On the issue of consultation - and the question of where to hold these hui - we take advice from iwi kāinga.

6.3 Closing kōrero (Tom Parore)

Appreciates the team going around and talking to Māori at the iwi level, and many iwi are represented here today. This hui has been valuable, more work has to be done particularly on the input at marae, whanau and hapū level.

6.4 Hohepa Rudolph

Tino mōhio tātou te iwi Māori ki te kaitiakitanga. Me tū he hui pēnei i roto i te reo Māori anake katahi ka kitea te tino hohunutanga o tēnei kaupapa...(Māori know very well this concept of kaitiakitanga. Just imagine if we held a hui like this totally in te reo Māori. Then you would have some real depth on the Māori view.)

 

Closing Karakia 2.10pm

Last updated: 25 November 2008