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Whakatane hui

21 February 2005

1. Karakia (Tame)/Mihimihi (Waaka Vercoe)

2. Introductions

Mike Jebson, George Ria (Ministry of Agriculture & Forestry); Claire Nesus (Te Puni Kōkiri); Livia Hollins, Sandra McIntyre (Ministry for the Environment); Willie Te Aho & Michelle Ngatai (Facilitator and minute secretary - Indigenous Corporate Solutions Limited).

3. Introductions of those in attendance

During introductions the following points were made:

3.1 Karen Walmsley (TPK)

Keen interest to hear what information is available in caring for our 'taonga'

3.2 Jim Gray (Te Arawa)

We need to go back to the 'putake' of this hui. Rotorua and Taupo is where the main concerns lie. It's about time this mess was sorted out. A hui should be held in Rotorua.

3.3 Maanu Paul (Grandparent and great grandparent)

It is our role to make sure that the environment is sustainable for our future generations to inherit. It is my aspiration that I will be remembered as a having 'ngā raho nui o te ao' for having the skills to leave a legacy for my 'mokopuna' about sustainable development.

This hui is about talking 'face to face' and not via email etc as you can say what you like without really believing in it via the e-mail. But this smacks of another taking similar to the 'taku taimoana'.

With reference to the discussion document (page 12) it notes that the Crown has vested the right to manage water in itself. We challenge the Crown who has vested unto themselves our 'tīpuna' (Ohinemataroa - the Whakatāne River). I have difficulties with this. We need to address this issue first. This is the ideal time to ask "Who owns the water' ...under the Treaty of Waitangi ... it is ours, it is ours, it is ours"

3.4 Te Poroa Heurea (Tūhoe - Project Manager for Ohinemataroa)

Happy to take the outcomes of the day back to Tūhoe. Important for Ngāti Awa and Tūhoe to work together and develop our own plans for the environment and our water.

3.5 Waka Vercoe (Māori Reference Group)

The outcomes of this hui will be distributed to the other rohe. With regard to the ownership of the water, we have to take the 'rough with the smooth.' - if we own it then we have the take the responsibility that comes with that ownership.

Willie Te Aho explained the purpose of this 'hui.' Gave a brief summary of the previous hui held to date and explained the process for submissions and the closing date of March 18 th 2005. The Te Arawa hui will be held on 4 March 2005 in Taupo. Willie Te Aho then explained the minute taking process and for making minutes available from other areas when all the hui have been completed.

4. Presentation (Mike Jebson)

4.1 Background

We're here to ask you to help us with the issues

  • Mike gave an example from his own personal experiences which is why he is so passionate about these issues. Without the cultural values Mike feels he can still appreciate the importance of these issues concerning water management.
  • Mike acknowledged the commitment that Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry and Ministry for the Environment have as joint leaders of the Water Programme of Action - a critical piece of work which has an integrated 'all of government approach'
  • This focus of this programme is fresh water from the mountains to the sea - including entire catchments, rivers, lakes and water under the ground .
  • Mike provided an explanation of which freshwater issues are being focused upon in this programme of action, and explained that we recognise that some issues are not directly included in the programme (eg estuaries, urban water issues) but noted that these issues are linked.
  • The purpose of this programme is to improve our current water management system so that we can sustainably manage freshwater. There are many dimensions to this work - social, cultural, economic, environmental - this makes this project difficult because we are looking at differing perspectives on the values of freshwater

4.2 Maanu Paul

Canterbury Plains is not a good example. Previously, the water would naturally flood that area and replenish the land. Now the water is channelled for use by industry and then to flushed out to sea which then pollutes our 'kaimoana' because of the non organic practices.

4.3 Waaka Vercoe

Conditions in North Canterbury are just as bad in South Canterbury. We need another means of sustainable economic development.

Presentation continued

  • Ownership - this document does not suggest that ownership should be transferred to the Crown. But the Crown acknowledges that it is responsible for management of freshwater.

4.4 Maanu Paul

As part of the Crown's responsibility in article 1 of the Treaty - governorship - the Crown has a duty to protect Māori rights in Articles 2 and 3. The Government must address the issue of ownership because ownership is the basis on which water is allocated. The Government must address ownership of freshwater if it wants the help of iwi and Māori as you have said today.

4.5 Jim Gray

Ownership of freshwater is a separate issue that we are not looking at today. No matter who owns freshwater, freshwater has to be managed. I don't want the responsibility of ownership, I want the right to co-manage and the resources to manage it properly. There are good examples from Ngai Tahu with respect to Aorangi where it 'belongs' to the whole of Aotearoa but there is co-management with the Crown and also the resourcing to manage the resource comes from the Crown. This approach also engenders considerable goodwill of the public.

Mike explained the roles of government officials present, and the government departments involved in the water programme of action.

4.6 Jim Gray

Do you have a Māori team from the Ministry for the Environment? Where are they?

Waka Vercoe - Riki Ellison is the manager for the Māori team within MFE. He has attended all of the working party meetings. Mike - Ricky also attended the hui in Christchurch.

George Ria explained his presence at the hui for the government but undertook to return the concerns raised today back to the government.

Presentation continued

We are here today to engage in a conversation which is very much at the beginning of the process. It has been going for a little over a year.

  • Explanation of two reference groups which provided some high level guidance - one was made up of about 25 'stakeholder groups' (eg. Federated Farmers, Forest and Bird, Fish and Game, Federation of Māori Authorities, Energy Companies) and the other was a Māori Reference Group (MRG) which George and Waka are involved in. Hekia Hiha, Morgan, Jane West, Gail Tipa, Waaka Vercoe are all part of that group.

4.7 The Water Programme of Action looks at three major issues

  • Allocation
    • How we share it around, it is about what we use (irrigation, diversion, electricity generation) and also what should stay
    • There is not enough water to meet everyone's needs and demand is going to continue to grow. So, the potential for conflict can only increase
    • Wasteful use and inefficient use of water

4.8 Maanu Paul

Water has to be treated as a public good. Then Treasury will have no problem funding the solutions needed. What is the Government doing about the allocation of the water?

Mike: The government is actively involved in addressing the issue of allocation. This is what these hui and the other meetings are about - to find out the best way forward.

4.9 Jim Gray

We only have to look at the lakes to see what is happening. The Government has allowed things to happen where it has reached the point where reversibility is absolutely impossible.

4.10 George Ria

Government has developed a sustainability framework, which has four cornerstones, to work with including cultural, environment, social and economic. This is the first step in this process, which the Government is still developing. This is where your input is important if we are to achieve positive change.

4.11 Maanu Paul

Government is talking amongst itself, and now asking for a hand where they should be talking directly with Māori alongside Māori. Also, there is a resourcing issue.

4.12 Waaka Vercoe

Funding is not an issue. That will follow once we get the programme identified.

4.13 George Ria

Again, this is an opportunity for Māori to have input at the front end of this development.

Maanu Paul: I don't want to respond I want to initiate discussion on my terms.

George Ria - Your kōrero (submissions) about how we should engage, initiate discussion is the type of response we want.

Presentation continued

  • Water quality
  • We know that quality is declining - this is a growing problem and affects some of our iconic waterways
  • We want to be able to drink it, and to swim in it
  • Some lakes are more sensitive than others, and there is an intensification in farming which has caused degradation
  • The mauri of our rivers is under attack
  • Nationally important water bodies - water bodies that are nationally significant for some reason. Eg 'iconic' lakes such as Taupo, Rotorua, Rotoiti

Other issues:

  • The role of Central Government - when should it be involved, and how should it be involved, the Government's approach has tended to be reactive rather than proactive - though there is some good work being done in Taupo - and there needs to be some prioritisation for Central Government involvement.
  • It is critical that good work being done locally is built upon, and to support regional and local councils.

4.14 Possible Solutions - Ideas for a new approach? (Sandra McIntyre)

(a) Providing National Direction

Some ideas are to make use of the Resource Management Act provisions for national policy statements and national environmental standards (currently there are none) these could set down ways that we can get more consistencies; for the Government to target where it gets more directly involved in water management - eg identifying the 'nationally important' water bodies

(b) Central Government could become more involved

Are there ways in which Central Government can add value to the way in which local government manages water? eg in making submissions on plans, should Central Government be more involved in developing best practice information and sharing that information out into communities, funding, pilot programmes - such as Lake Taupo, Lake Rotorua - the collaborative project to cut down nitrogen levels in the lake

(c) Working together

Water management is complex, the community needs to understand that there are issues and therefore there is a need to raise awareness of the water quality problems and that water is a scarce resource;

Raising awareness - looking for solutions as well as identifying problems.

We want to work on building relationships with Māori, we hope that an outcome of the programme is better involvement of Māori and improving the appreciation of Māori cultural values in the planning and policy process to avoid Māori having to make repetitive submissions.

'Building Relations with Māori' - Central Government is looking to provide guidance for better engagement on a much wider range of issues (ie not just about water).

(d) Provide more tools (presentation continued)

  • Current first in first served might not be appropriate anymore. The discussion booklet sets out some ideas around auctioning and tendering of water. Invited discussion around these ideas.
  • Local Government prepares plans - local authorities could be required to prepare a plan concerning water issues.
  • Transfer of consents and discharge permits.
  • Allocation/Declination - Explore methods that the LG can assist. It may require changes in legislation.

5. Discussion

5.1 Willie Te Aho gave a brief summary of similar issues raised in other areas.

  • Treaty - The treaty has been specifically covered at each of the hui. On this issue most people have said that with respect to relationships with Māori this is the key issue to be resolved first.
  • Waitaha ( Canterbury) - Health of the water and the life with in comes first. Those animals that were transported in can be transported out.
  • Māori Reference Group - Jane West noted last Thursday that the Māori Reference Group had made suggestions that were not included in the document of discussion. This process has allowed the MRG members to reiterate their views.
  • Consultation - People at Waitara wanted consultation amongst Māori by Māori before consulting with Government.
  • Kaitaia - some people openly accepted responsibility for their state of water as farmers and polluters.

5.2 Waaka Vercoe (as Chair)

We are able to make submissions which will be recorded and can be submitted in this way through these minutes. Waaka also encourages people to make personal submissions as well.

5.3 Jim Gray

I don't want to own the water because it makes me responsible for it. I'm also short of resources which is the predicament Lake Rotorua is in. I do want to be a part of the management. If Māori take ownership and things don't work out then it's our fault.

Agriculture is the main pollutant, we could stop it but how practical is that. What do we replace it with? We cannot isolate NZ from the world; we need to grow economically.

Government needs to set standards for the quality of our water. Local Government can then enforce standards.

5.4 Maanu Paul

The Crown needs to implement the Treaty. Consultation has become a checklist - with the Crown more interested in ticking the box rather than true engagement.

This is not about water, it is about sustainability, sustaining a resource. Economics is the process. There is also a problem with the research process which should underpin the economic process. For example, funding application to FORST for organic orchards (Te Waka Kaiora) was refused. The reason given: 'because organics is not a science'. Too much funding is invested in scientific research (FORST) rather than the view of people of the land.

Wai 212 - Ika whenua claim: we claim that we own the water and this sets out our position on water. Courts would not say that the waters and river ways are owned by our people (Iwi).

I have no faith in this process because of the past eg Ohinemataroa. A permit was sort by the Whakatāne Borough Council to discharge to the Whakatāne River (Ohinemataroa) under the Town & Country Planning Act 1977 (also Soil & Water Act). We made a submission that WBC had no right to pollute our Tīpuna (ancestor - Hinemataroa). Defence lawyers referred to our submission as a 'fairytale'. To us, Hinemataroa went to Maungapohatu to live. A karere (notice) reached her that her granddaughter was born. She sent a message to her daughter to place the grandchild on a certain rock at the Whakatāne heads. Ka mimi (she then urinated) - and this created the Whakatāne river - so that her grandchild could be transported on river up to Maungapohatu. Decision: WBC cannot pollute river.

Q: What about floods?

A: Floods are an act of God.

Basis of stories: not once is there reference in discussion document to Māori spirituality and culture about the water. Also, our values will be weighed against the electorate, the significant majority who are opposed to our view: History shows this.

Our view is that we own the water.

There must be a transition period for industry to work with government to change the economic development so that it becomes more sustainable.

Forestry trend - to stop forestry and use land for farming: greater economic return. Not concerned about the environment.

There should be a transition of 50 years with clear goals for 2050. Goal 1: Put the substance into our clean green image.

Yes our history is in agriculture, but our future should be in sustainable development. Not against development, but against unsustainable development.

Why is the government holding a Hui Taumata (next week) without reference to this? (Jim - why is it holding one at all!)

Awarded a Fulbright scholarship - My brief was to study training and re-training. My study was on ethnic minority small business and motorcar/carpet industries. Commonality with other indigenous peoples when referring to mountains and rivers as a part of my identity. In Rhode Island - I saw Te Rangitukehu's Bill of Lading for kauri spas, pork and flax that he exported to the USA by sailing ship. I can't export Kiwi fruit - because of an Act of the government.

It relates to this issue because the government is making the decisions - this is not 'tino rangatiratanga' or my right to make my decisions.

5.5 Waaka Vercoe (personal views from hapū):

  • As Māori we sometimes take the direct 'head on' approach
  • We need to work out the rules, and then play . An example of this is how EBOP accepted the need for Māori representation on council:
    • Maureen Waka advocated for Māori to be represented on Regional Council
    • First step - Need to work out strategy on how we are going to achieve this goal
    • Second step - Targeted EBOP Chair (mirimiri nga raho - influence) - once the Chair agrees then he becomes our advocate to the rest of council
    • End result: Now EBOP has 3/14 seats (Raewyn Bennett, Eru Tai, Steve Marr)
    • Use your tactics wisely
    • Councils are run by middle class people - always been there and regard councils as their heritage. Need to be clever in achieving your strategy.
  • Consultation - We need to take a fresh Māori approach. An example. EBOP already had plans ready for a proposed development and then wanted to consult with Māori. The lateness of the consultation was noted. The way forward was to present the plans through a waiata for all the presenters to learn. This is a tool for communicating to our people - our old people did this.
    • Our kuia are still the repositories of the knowledge within our communities - we need to make greater use of them. They have a clearer perception of what we need to do, and also they can communicate through our waiata (songs). The young people respect our kuia - the young people know that the kuia take time to consider points.
    • We need to use a range of strategies/tactics to reach our goals
    • Quite happy to compose a waiata to get our people thinking about these issues for another perspective
    • Management of a resource that we do not have a great deal of is our challenge - past thinking of an abundance of water is wrong.
  • Putauaki Farm - (Agresearch/FORST), lead scientist is a Māori (Roger Pikia). Farm being used as a pilot to try different ideas which includes how we can use water in the most optimum way.
  • Storm water - being wasted and going straight out to sea.
    • In Brisbane, water being captured in water tanks and then used on gardens. If this was used in Auckland they would not have to use the water from Tainui/Waikato
  • Māori Values - example of the Land Plan & Water Plan being developed separately by EBOP. It was advocated that these plans be developed together. You can't separate the two - they should be done together. Now there is a Water & Land Plan. From a Māori perspective, the water is always first - when a child is born the water comes first then the afterbirth (whenua).
  • Common goals/outcomes - Need to look at outcomes which everyone is comfortable with. You can put things through in a way which people can be comfortable with.
  • The Māori Reference Group issues have not been lost - they need to be repackaged.

5.6 Te Poroa Heurea

  • Maungapohatu
    • Sustainable has come to mean your taonga being taken out or someone is building something in your rohe.
    • Sustainable logging (Ruatāhuna) - 10,000 m2 per annum
      • One of the biggest impacts on our lower stream is the 'sustainable logging'
    • Sustainable has come to mean easy access for someone else to use the resources in our area
    • Tūhoe people are asking why they cannot make their own decisions for their own region
    • Support Maanu - ownership of the resources is an issue. Also, our focus is to have the power to protect and manage our taonga in our rohe. This power is currently with the EBOP
    • Taking gravel and taking water is having an impact on the lower stream.
      • Drying up of stream due to irrigation has led to a complaint to EBOP. Nothing has been done about this concern.
    • We need to sit down with Ngāti Awa and work through our plan

5.7 Papanui Ruri (TPK)

  • Went throughout the rohe to distribute the discussion document information
  • Asked the people what were their crucial points?
    • Water for themselves
    • There is 50km plus travel from Ruatāhuna, Minginui, to Waiohau.
    • Looking at assistance - how can they manage their own water? They would like assistance (Ruatāhuna & Waiohau):
      • Expert knowledge (council only service 16 houses in Ruatāhuna) - they want engineering expertise; water articulation; to access water from their puna (puna - spring).
      • Some people have done courses on water management - they want to utilise their own people in the management of their water.
      • They want to use their own rates for their own purposes - outside of the Council process.
      • No resources - no government agencies.
      • These ideas have been echoed in both Ruatāhuna and Waiohau
    • Ruatoki
      • like Whakatāne (water tank supply). Outlying areas rely on the bore.
      • Concerned that the river banks are eroding
        • Extraction of metals from within the confiscation line is affecting the lower river
      • Ohinemataroa River Committee - one of its aims is to stop the erosion of the river banks.

5.8 Karen Walmsley

Concern - the government is wonderful creator of process. Submissions are required by the 18 th March. The discussion document is not Māori friendly. How do our people best participate in this process? Where to from here?

Sandra - reports from hui, public meetings and council meetings will be made available to the public. Information will also be posted to the website. Information will eventually go into a cabinet paper (by end of April 2005). This will include proposals on the way forward.

Mike - the records of these hui will form a part of the process of reporting to the Ministers.

5.9 Waaka Vercoe

It is important that all of our ideas are noted.

Mike - this is a multi-year programme so there is time.

Waka - what is the end goal of this programme? Mike - it depends on what comes out of the hui/meetings

6. Summary and Conclusion

6.1 Mike's reflection on key themes.

  • Specific communities and their needs
    • Capacity issues - but they want to ultimately be responsible for their decisions
  • Ownership - if ownership is addressed then management will follow. But acknowledge the viewpoint noted regarding the challenges of owning water.
  • Sustainable Management - have heard what is being said that sustainable means different things to Māori at times
  • Water comes first - foundation of all things
  • Agricultural economy - there are challenges. Time horizon of 50 years was noted and this is needed
  • How the water should be managed; decision makers - who should be at the table. These are issues that Māori want to be a part of
  • Iwi have not heard the Crown's response to the Iwi claims made to the ownership of waters - and this does affect how Iwi view the Crown.

6.2 George Ria

  • Mike has captured the essence of what took place today.
  • There has to be a change from the economic being the main driver
  • If our environment is to get better then we have to go back to the cultural & environmental perspective for balance - our values must underline how we develop. We must care for our water - and this will look after the people. Long term we will flourish.
  • Waka talked about strategies - marrying values of Māori and Pakeha is a strategy as well.
  • Jim's views on the Crown taking responsibility for the water and Māori managing is a strategy that should not be lost in the discussion as well
  • We need people continually advocating the need for change. The history of how the Treaty and Te Reo Māori gained prominence has taken time.
  • He mihi whakamutunga ki te iwi kāenga (acknowledgement to the home people).

6.3 Waaka Vercoe

Referred to a garden in front of the marae that was planted by Tāwhao Tioke. The earth and native plants were sourced from Waimana. Wonderful resource which highlights the foresight of Tāwhao 40 years ago. We need to have the same foresight for the next 40 years.

6.4 Maanu Paul

  • Kuia - the place of Māori women and water is vital. This is emphasised by the fact that the place for local women to educate each other was based around water (Otarawairere)
  • Ngāti Manawa - all the birthing is done by men. My father assisted with the delivery of all 13 children in a Kauta (hut) by the river (over a 2 week period). The power of water and its spirituality is vital to us.
  • We need consider more than the physical aspects of water, but also the spirituality of the water (including the transporting of images) - and the gifts of Tāwhirimātea, Tangaroa and Papatūānuku.
  • Acknowledgement of the facilitator - despite being paid by the Crown, we know that he is Māori first.
  • Acknowledgement of George, the importance of his role within MAF and support for this role.
  • I believe that there is a growing resentment in the way that we are being treated. We thought that we would be treated equally with Pakeha when we gained an education. This has not happened. We also need to listen to all people from all walks of life

Hui closed with a karakia from Maanu Paul at 1.45pm

Last updated: 25 November 2008