Skip to main content.

Invercargill hui

10 February 2005, 1pm

1. Karakia/ Mihimihi (Mike Skerrett).

2. Introductions

Mike Jebson, Rebecca Martel, George Ria, Graham Elliott (Ministry of Agriculture & Forestry); Arnu Turvey (Te Puni Kōkiri); Livia Hollins (Ministry for the Environment); Richard Hawke (Ministry of Economic Development); Willie and Linda Te Aho (Facilitator and minute secretary - Indigenous Corporate Solutions Limited).

3. Introductions of those in attendance

4. Presentation (Mike Jebson)

4.1 Background

  • Explanation of collaboration between the various government departments
  • Wise management of water from mountains to the sea - which freshwater bodies are being focused upon in this water programme of action
  • Urban water supply not covered in this programme
  • We need a healthy water system for all dimensions and values relating to water - social, cultural, spiritual and economic, environmental

4.2 Two major issues

  • Allocation - taking of water
    • Demand is still increasing for farm irrigation and energy needs; Waitaki River is an example of those pressures - the Government has already stepped in to address some of those issues.
  • Water quality - declining Mike gave a background of his own experience of declining water quality in the streams he enjoyed in his upbringing, and the value of water in terms of his family's farming background in the Canterbury Plains

This discussion document and the water programme reflect some 18 months of initial thinking around what the problems are and some proposals and ideas. The next stage is testing that thinking, and that is why we are here today. If there are other problems or other ideas, we value your feedback.

Some of the ideas were tested with stakeholders (eg fishers, farmers, Māori,); a Māori reference group was established to bring some wise heads together to get some preliminary advice.

4.3 Possible Solutions - Ideas for a new approach? (Rebecca Martel)

(a) Providing National Direction

Some ideas are:

  • To make use of RMA provisions for national policy statements and national environmental standards - eg how much water should stay in a lake or river (currently there no national policies or standards);
  • Government targeting where it gets more directly involved in water management - identifying the 'nationally important' water bodies - eg Government has already become involved in issues around the Rotorua lakes and Taupo, and Waitaki. It is not proposed that the Govt step in and take over water management.

(b) Central Govt could become more involved in developing best practice information and sharing around, funding, pilot programmes

(c) Working together

  • Raising awareness - education
  • Building relationships with Māori
    • Iwi relationships with local government
  • Pilot programmes eg Lake Taupo (cooperative approach), sharing information

(d) Providing more tools

  • Current first in first served might not be appropriate anymore. The discussion booklet sets out some ideas around auctioning and tendering of water.
  • Transfer of water permits and consents
  • Local Government prepares plans

5. Discussion

5.1 George Ryan

It looks as though we are moving towards a property right, if I buy something, I own it and can sell it, this is totally wrong for our waterways.

Our water is over allocated and the quality is terrible.

Mitigation - throw that word out. It's a slow fix - we want solutions.

Our rivers and lakes are polluted by algal bloom.

Local Government has poor control, it is under resourced, and under-manned, by the time they get to the source of the complaint; they cannot do anything about it.

Some one should be fronting up to keep our waterways clear.

If water looked at through a cultural perspective, there would not be half the problems today. Our old people said if you look after the water and the land, they will look after you. The main focus should be on cultural protection because this is about looking after the river and the life within it. Also, water should go back into the river, not somewhere else.

5.2 Mike Skerrett

Māori take a holistic view, Mike referred to the photograph of the Waitaki River, and the practice of councils putting in flood protection schemes. The Ōrete River meandered from time to time, now there are flood channels in which the river is being controlled. Because of this, year after year, habitat/ecosystems, eeling spots and fishing spots are changing. When the river is confined (by flood protection schemes), the river digs in and the habitats dry up.

Through gravel extraction, we are trying to replace what has been lost. Populations of some birds nesting up the river have disappeared over the years. It is not good practice to be narrowing and confining rivers. Rivers don't naturally go straight, they like to meander. Birds like to settle on the river beds in protected areas - to keep cool and to feed. These areas are just not there.

Mike Jebson: there is a lot of nutrient in the water now. River levels and flows also affect the plant life in and about the rivers.

5.3 Mike Skerrett

Mike supports the need for Central Government to become more involved. Local Authorities need strong direction to guide them, and that links to more central government involvement in the annual planning process. Otherwise, each council develops their own understanding of water - with 4 different approaches to one resource.

Environment standards - be careful that they don't limit us. This idea has the potential to be dangerous.

There will be a concern if water standards are set too low. If the quality of the river (such as Mataura for example) is not good, and the low standards are able to be met by consent applicants, this then leads to the continuation of the poor quality of the river. Some water is not safe to swim in, and kaimoana is not safe to eat.

5.4 Mike Skerrett asked about national water bodies of importance

Mike Jebson: Central Government has had a first cut of trying to assess national significance of water bodies. Councils don't necessarily take into account national significance of water bodies when making decisions. This is not just a section 6 RMA issue, though this is an important factor. There are many factors that could go towards national significance - geological features, economic uses (hydro).

Mike Jebson acknowledges that each iwi has its own sense of which water bodies are significant to them.

5.5 Mike Jebson

Raised a question about standards - should the focus be on getting all lakes and rivers up to standard of swimming, eating?

5.6 Mike Skerrett

Yes. We need to think out generations. It is not sustainable to carry on what we are doing.

On the issue of Building Relationships - this is going well down here. We have Te Ao Mārama, adapted from the Tūranganui a Kiwa experience. There is resourcing for runanga, so they can act as a link with council.

We have a roopu Taiao which has regular quarterly meetings. It is a political group with representatives from each runanga and from each council.

Policies and consents are discussed. The ongoing working relationships with councils have done us an enormous amount of good. We have a charter of understanding. And now with the extra provisions in the LGA, we already have a forum in place.

5.7 Arnu Turvey

Are there any obvious benefits of this good relationship?

5.8 Stewart Bull

There are many positives, but there is a need to formalise those relationships in case personalities change. Social interaction is important - you build friendships and gain a better understanding of each other.

5.9 Mike Skerrett

Councils have told me of the enormous value of having Stewart on their committee.

5.10 George Ria

There are costs involved where a council's relationship is not good with iwi, (eg court costs).

5.11 Mike Skerrett

Iwi must be involved in the planning process (permitted uses), in the consent process, otherwise money talks and Iwi cannot continue to participate/challenge.

We must be sure that we don't end up in the Environment Court poorly resourced. This may set a bad precedent for everyone else. That is why policy and rules and so on must be right in the plans, and a good relationship helps with this.

Water quality - Mike Skerrett has 'before and after' photographs of a stream that had riparian planting - rushes etc overhanging a stream, in the 'after' photo, it was all open at exactly the same spot, all the rushes were gone, the stream was wider, and there were several quality issues including temperature.

With regard to the run-off of nutrients - this causes growth in the streams which lowers oxygen levels. Mike is convinced that there is no need for anywhere near the amount of topdressing that is being done. Mike relayed a story about a friend who adopted good farming practices - carried out soil testing, against phosphate - and he enjoyed good results. This 'best practice' approach to land management will improve the quality of the rivers and waterways.

In Lumsden, Winton and Clifton sewage is discharged right beside rivers. To avoid this, you need approximately 200 hectares of suitable lands, and costs are huge. So, practically, we need to get treatment systems as good as possible.

Getting back to water standards, some of the standards give users a bit of license to behave the way they do. We need to tighten up the water standards as a way of addressing this.

5.12 Stewart Bull

Supports what has been said.

Supports the idea of National policy statements to ensure consistency and provide clear direction.

Water standards - we need to set these as high as we possibly can - until we can go into rivers and drink the water - that is the standard.

As a Māori - in terms of kaitiakitanga, and rangatiratanga, I cannot say 'go and help yourself' to the resources, I say "don't eat that, don't go there" because of the pollution. This is embarrassing.

Waterways are the bloodlines of Papatūānuku, we cannot allow them to be dirty. They are all connected.

The tsunami, felt in the South Island shows us that the waterways throughout the globe are all interconnected too.

Riparian planting is one important area that we need to improve. Titi Islands -still very much in natural state, and allows us to see what the water should look like.

In terms of trading consents, he agrees that those with money (multi nationals) will be the ones who secure the rights, we cannot compete with them. This must not be allowed to happen.

Resource rentals could play a role in encouraging people to be more careful with water use, and the volume applied for (in anticipation that it will become a tradable commodity in the near future similar to what happened in the fishing industry). We don't want people hording water permits only to build up water rights for future allocation. This must not be allowed to happen.

Better monitoring of water use is needed, though he does not think there is abuse of water in Southland, it is more an issue that there is not enough water to go around.

Mitigation - this is an area that needs to be looked at more carefully - water is compromised. Money seems to be an issue here.

In the South the advantage is that there is one iwi. Language should be focussed on iwi/mana whenua rather than Māori.

Stewart has read the discussion document and noted that it is laid out well and was easy to read. He likes the direction it is taking.

5.13 Mike Skerrett

Currently in the consent process for allocation - you can only use the water for a particular purpose and that needs to be kept.

Pump tests are used to gauge use. This can determine what people are using and cut backs can be made.

5.14 Tiny (Graham) Metzger

Growing up, there were ample amounts of mussels, he was told that if Pakeha continued to dispose of tutae (human faeces) (Councils and towns put their tutae into rivers), in time there would be no kelp and we would lose that resource. This has come true. On Tītī Island they practice tikanga of disposal onto land. Now, water is polluted. Māori may not be considered scientists, but many of the species have disappeared. We observed the life in and about the rivers and knew when our rivers were healthy. We do not see these plants and fish now.

Until Central Government make a rule prohibits tutae from going into water, we are never going to reach our targets.

5.15 Stewart Bull

Does not support putting a cap on discharges, this merely puts a target to aim for and discourage improvement. This is the same thing in quota management system.

5.16 George Ryan

Low flow in the rivers - average should be set, so that once that is reached, there is no way they go past it for whatever purpose. He has heard talk about 50% below mean low flow as being acceptable - this puts the whole environment (particularly native fish) in danger.

The discussion booklet talks about economic use of the water - there is a proliferation of dairy farming in and around Southland, this takes a lot of water.

The native aquatic species have first right to the water. The cows come in on a truck. They can go out on a truck. The native species have nowhere else to go.

5.17 Mike Skerrett

A Water Conservation Order is supposed to help protect the river, but - no matter how low it goes, there is no bottom line, and there should be.

Mike J - questions whether Water Conservation Order allows taking for irrigation or stock?

Mike S - there is no minimum low flow.

We are trying to have a cut off point. But this is really difficult. A lot of research has been done and is being done on the aquifers, bores, and links to rivers. The Regional council is now taking a conservative approach. Irrigation has only come in the last couple of years down here. There are a number of questions and debates about where water should be taken from - rivers? If taken from aquifers - then should they be deep or shallow? It was acknowledged that this is a complex issue particularly where aquifers are linked to rivers.

5.18 Stewart Bull

Should we be looking after our aquifers more?

5.19 Rodney Ryan

Water allocation should not be transferable - to do so would bring the value of the farm being sold up higher if they have a water right.

Farmers should be encouraged farmers to conserve water and to get their own water supply - leave the rivers alone.

5.20 Mike Skerrett

Mike knows of one crop grower who is making steps towards this, he has a pond to accumulate and store water.

5.21 Stewart Bull

Water management - yes the economy is to be taken into account, but it always seems to be the water that is compromised.

It is a resource to be used, but we must focus on the health of the water first, rather than the health of everything else.

Mouths of rivers tell the story of what is happening, that is where testing should take place. 'Ki uta ki tai'.

5.22 Tiny

That is where the environmental indicator is, not in the test tube, at the mouth of the river. If this water is clean - then everything up stream is good.

5.23 Dwane

Supports what has been said, we should be able to drink out of the river. A national policy seems like a good idea for consistency.

6. Summary and conclusion

6.1 Mike Jebson: outlined some of the key messages and themes and wisdom imparted to us

  • Water is about connectedness, land, sea and mountains, and it is all one system
  • Issues with water - some good and some bad
  • Relationship here between iwi and council is a good model when compared with other parts of the country
  • National direction and consistency is needed
  • There are concerns about environmental standards being set at lowest common denominator - they need to be set higher - to enable swimming, eating and drinking
  • There are concerns about trading - but there may be a role for resource rentals
  • We need to do more to work with farmers - to encourage better management and water use - such as riparian planting
  • There are problems with the engineering of rivers eg stopbanks, and the impacts of this
  • There is concern about the creation of property rights - and concern about accessibility
  • The health of the water must be prioritised over other concerns

6.2 George Ria

The "Māori way" talked about today is essentially a 'common sense' way which promotes balance in the environment. George referred to a lecture by Whatarangi Winiata on tino rangatiratanga who explained Te Ao Māori. According to Winiata, when Māori travelled from Rangiātea the most important ingredient brought across was not food supplies, but intelligence and knowledge - so that when they got here they could survive while still retaining the environment to keep them alive.

Our task now is to take your comments to help those who make policy to understand this 'Māori way'.

George acknowledged the good relationship that iwi here have with councils and noted that in his own experience, bad relationships with iwi costs council and talked about the important role of Māori who understand the mechanics within Councils and within Government.

7. Closing kōrero - (Mike Skerrett)

It is good to see the different government departments working together.

Karakia 4.20pm

Last updated: 25 November 2008