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Fresh water

• Freshwater reforms
• Land and Water Forum
• Water quality
• Freshwater availability and use
• Land use and fresh water

Hamilton hui

17 February 2005 , 10am

1. Karakia (Mac Karauria) /Mihimihi (Wally Papa)

2. Introductions

Paul Reynolds, Rebecca Martel, George Ria (Ministry of Agriculture & Forestry); Tom White (Te Puni Kōkiri); Livia Hollins (Ministry for the Environment); Willie and Linda Te Aho (Facilitator and minute secretary - Indigenous Corporate Solutions Limited).

3. Introductions of those in attendance

During introductions the following points were made:

3.1 Peter Bacchus

Clean water is one of our most valuable resources. We must look after the Earth and all that lives in it. [Peter departed for the Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment Hui]

3.2 Ray Ridings - Organic Dairy Farmers Group

We are in organic farming for business reasons and to look after Mother Earth. [Ray departed for the Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment Hui]

3.3 Philip White - Dairy Farmer

Water is our legacy - it is the lifeblood of our community. We need to manage taking and the overall management of the resource

3.4 Norman Hill

It is good to see representation from councils here, and it is important for us to work collectively on this. Waikato people are a river people, Waikato is our tupuna awa and runs through the veins of Papatūānuku, we need to highlight the tikanga side, rather than the quadruple bottom line.

3.5 Julian Williams - Environmental officer of Waikato Raupatu Land Trust

Waikato River is of utmost importance to us a tribe. We are going through the Waikato River claim at the moment. We are still trying to get our heads around this particular issue, and we need to get together as a tribe, and as a waka to sort through these issues.

3.6 Niketi Toataua (TPK Waikato)

We need to protect our puna (fresh water springs) close to our marae which is sustenance to our hau kainga. We need to value water, we need to be educated on these issues.

3.7 Alice Anderson (Ngāti Hako, Hauraki Māori Trust Board)

We already know about the issue of allocation, people are moving from Auckland into our rohe, our river Waihau River is important to our marae and our iwi.

We have to deal with two different processes, this document and the Environment Waikato process.

3.8 Bubby Hughes

Water is our life force. I remember when we used to swim and bathe in our stream Te Wai o Hotu, we had special bathing places, and mahinga kai. Now it has almost dried up.

3.9 Lorna Pope

I was brought up by the puna, and it is very important, but the puna is not there anymore.

3.10 Matuakore Koperu

Opening up the Kaimai range has impacted on our waterways. One of the main problems is the townships along our rivers who disperse their waste into our rivers.

3.11 Te Mana Taiao o Raukawa

An explanation was provided for the role of Te Mana Taiao o Raukawa - the environmental arm of the Raukawa Trust Board - and the representation of marae from Raukawa.

The saying "Ko au ko te awa, ko te awa ko au" sets the context for our world view and we will expand upon this later.

Willie Te Aho explained the process for submissions and the closing date of March 18 th 2005 and advised that there have already been two other hui in the Waikato/Tainui rohe - a public hui, and a presentation to Environment Waikato on the same issue. The EW and public consultation meeting was held on 1 February 2005.

Willie then explained the minute taking process and for making minutes available from other areas.

4. Presentation (Paul Reynolds)

4.1 Background

• Paul acknowledges the strong commitment that Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry and Ministry for the Environment have to this joint programme of action - a very critical piece of work which has an integrated 'all of government approach'
• This focus of this programme is to look at fresh water from the mountains to the sea - catchment, rivers, lakes, water under the ground
• Explanation of which freshwater bodies are being focused upon in this programme of action, some things are critical but not directly included in the programme (eg estuaries, urban water supply) but notes that these issues are linked
• The purpose of this programme is to improve water management
• There are many dimensions to this work - social, cultural, economic, environmental - this makes any work extremely difficult because there are always differing perspectives on the values of water
• Water is part of all of us - we drink it, we bathe in it, we eat from it, we make money from it, we generate energy from it, it supports mahinga kai, we swim in it, many of us gain spiritual enrichment from it. Therefore water must be managed wisely so that all our needs can be met.
• We are here today to engage in a conversation which is very much at the beginning of the process. It has been going for a little over a year.
• This is not a consultation where officials are coming to get rubber stamps. We are here to seek and capture input. We need to know where people have problems and we want to hear about different approaches and new solutions
• Explanation of two reference groups which provided some high level guidance - one was made up of about 25 'stakeholder groups' (eg. Federated Farmers, Forest and Bird, Fish and Game, Federation of Māori Authorities, Energy Companies) and the other was a Māori Reference Group (MRG) which was not representative, but was there to provide some initial advice: Hekia Hiha, Paul Morgan, Jane West, Gail Tipa, Waaka Vercoe.

4.2 The Water Programme of Action looks at three major issues

• Allocation
  • how we share it around, it is about what we use (irrigation, diversion, electricity generation) and also what should stay
  • There is not enough water to meet everyone's needs and demand is going to continue to grow. So, the potential for conflict can only increase
  • Wasteful use and inefficient use of water

• Water quality
  • We know that quality is declining - this is a growing problem and affects some of our iconic waterways
  • We want to be able to drink it, and to swim in it
  • Some lakes are more sensitive than others, and there is an intensification in farming which has caused degradation
  • the mauri of our rivers is under attack

• Nationally important water bodies - water bodies that are nationally significant for some reason. Eg 'iconic' lakes such as Taupo, Rotorua, Rotoiti

4.3 Other issues

• The role of Central Government - when should it be involved, and how should it be involved, the Government's approach has tended to be reactive rather than proactive - though there is some good work being done in Taupo - and there needs to be some prioritisation for Central Government involvement.
• It is critical that good work being done locally is built upon, and to support regional and local councils.

4.4 Possible Solutions - Ideas for a new approach? (Rebecca Martel)

(a) Providing National Direction

Some ideas are to make use of the Resource Management Act provisions for national policy statements and national environmental standards (currently there are none) these could set down environmental bottom lines; for the Government to target where it gets more directly involved in water management - eg identifying the 'nationally important' water bodies

(b) Central Government could become more involved

Are there ways in which CG can add value to the way in which local government manages water? eg in making submissions on plans, should CG be more involved in developing best practice information and sharing that information out into communities, funding, pilot programmes - such as Lake Taupo - the collaborative project to cut down nitrogen levels in the lake

(c) Working together

Water management is complex, the community needs to understand that there are issues and therefore there is a need to raise awareness of the water quality problems and that water is a scarce resource;

We want to work on building relationships with Māori, we hope that an outcome of the programme is better involvement of Māori and improving the appreciation of Māori cultural values in the planning and policy process to avoid Māori having to make repetitive submissions.

One action identified in the discussion booklet is 'Enhancing Māori participation' this is really about building relationships. Central Government is looking to provide guidance for better engagement on a much wider range of issues (ie not just about water).

(d) Provide more tools (presentation continued)

• Current first in first served might not be appropriate anymore. The discussion booklet sets out some ideas around auctioning and tendering of water.
• Transfer of consents and discharge permits
• Local Government prepares plans - local authorities could be required to prepare a plan concerning water issues.

5. Discussion

5.1 Niketi Toataua

Is there an educational package in there to help raise awareness?

Rebecca: We are not developing the work yet. We are asking whether that is something you want to see.

Niketi - Education is necessary - can funding be built in?

Rebecca: If it is an option that is adopted then there would need to be funding.

5.2 Helen Nuku

What areas do the members of the Māori Reference Group cover?

Paul: the Māori Reference Group is not there to represent an area, they are there to provide some advice.

Rebecca: Gail Tipa, South Island; Jane West, Ngāti Whātua; Waka Vercoe, Eastern Bay of Plenty; Paul Morgan, Nelson.

Helen Nuku: will this group be reviewed

Rebecca: we will be reviewing this

5.3 Alice Anderson

Have the ideas provided by the Māori Reference Group been adopted into the discussion document?

Paul: some of them are, but it is fair to say that they are not all there. Some of the issues are being brought up in hui.

Willie Te Aho

In an earlier hui at Ngāti Whātua (North Harbour), MRG member Jane West commented that some of the ideas the MRG put forward were not included into the discussion document (particularly the Treaty of Waitangi and Māori Values). Jane did outline in the minutes the key points that the MRG had submitted so this is another opportunity for those points to be re-heard.

5.4 Julian Williams

On what criteria were the Māori Reference Group appointed?

Waikato have important resources and there is no-one from Waikato on the Māori Reference Group Rebecca - they were not appointed to represent iwi, they were appointed for their technical expertise.

Facilitator's Summary of the discussion regarding the Māori Reference Group:

There is support for the review of the Māori Reference Group and the people in attendance support representation on the Māori Reference Group being aligned with iwi and waka.

5.5 Julian Williams

Yes we are reactionary and we do need national guidance. Cultural values are very important.

Disagrees strongly with bartering and trading of permits, this implies ownership. This will greatly affect our river claim and co-management.

Regional councils should have some discretionary powers to change conditions immediately and iwi must be able to review those permits. How are government departments working together to develop national standards?

Answer: we want to hear from you first whether the national standards approach is the approach to take. There are a number of govt departments involved, and there is a joint lead for this work - MAF and MfE. We are trying an integrated approach, and trying to encourage ministers to work together too.

5.6 Norman Hill

On the issue of more tools: a subset of that was raising awareness and the Tūwharetoa example - that is an unfortunate situation and the approach is reactive.

In our hapū, our waterways are being degraded. If you are looking at being proactive, you need to work collectively with whānau, hapū and iwi for the betterment of our future and to avoid the situation that is occurring now in Tūwharetoa - which is the result of farming practices of 50 years ago.

We need more than input, we need membership and representation of the whole motu - we would have more confidence in the process - we have the expertise.

We look at the river in a spiritual way. We have used it as a food basket, and for healing.

5.7 Helen Nuku

What is a technical expert?

Rebecca: Jane West has expertise in wastewater association; Waaka Vercoe has expertise from a Regional Council background; Paul Morgan has expertise in economic development; and Gail Tipa is developing Cultural health index for water quality

5.8 Te Mana Taiao o Raukawa

Consultation process:

• Te Mana Taiao firstly congratulated the team of officials for coming to talk - this is the beginning of consultation - this is not the consultation. Concerned about the closing date, we need time to discuss these issues amongst ourselves and hear from other experts.
• We invite you to attend our Te Mana Taiao o Raukawa hui on 8 th March 2005 when we will discuss this issue with the representatives of our marae within Raukawa.

5.9 John Wi

We strenuously support the concept of resourcing and education of our people at all levels of the process.

If you take our catchment, the taking of the water from the upper reaches of the Wanganui (there was no consultation on that issue) this had great environmental effects on the wider area eg Pureora Wetlands. Inter-departmental buy-in is something we like to hear.

In our area, many of our people are going through the courts on the Genesis issue. This is a complex area and it will be difficult to come up with policy to deal with these issues.

It was clarified that underground water is covered in the programme.

5.10 Te Mana Taiao o Raukawa

We have experienced the balancing of cultural issues with 'sustainable development' eg energy needs which are seen as national interests - these competing needs often override our interests. We need to have our voice heard. Our river is an ancestor to us, and we need to make sure that we do everything possible to make it pristine. But we are realists and we need to look at ways that we can better manage the waterway.

5.11 Norman Hill

As we speak, the government is reviewing the RMA - sections 6(e), 7 and 8

If there are changes in the RMA, they should strengthen the indigenous culture's position rather than weaken it. We are significant, we are tangata whenua, but we are treated as "average Joes".

We need to enhance our status rather than have it watered down.

Willie Te Aho: Submissions on the RMA changes have closed, but there is still an opportunity to try to make a late submission and to try to engage in the select committee process.

5.12 Te Mana Taiao o Raukawa

On the issue of what freshwater includes, in our claim, our definition of the Tupuna river incorporates the total catchment - underground waters, tributaries, and estuaries.

5.13 Julian Williams

The Waikato River is the indicator of what is happening around us.

5.14 Niketi Toataua

We have heard about Genesis, Mighty River etc, but we also have individual rich farmers. They can create their own dams which can affect waterways. Does this document prevent people from doing things their own way?

5.15 Alice Anderson

The Treaty is not mentioned in the document - somewhere the treaty claims need to be acknowledged.

Agrees that Central Government needs to be involved in national standards.

There also needs to be meaningful engagement in a number of levels within Māori and non-Māori - we don't want another Oceans Policy - this has been a real stumbling block

Integration is a key issue for us - we need to look at the policy in a holistic way

Values are pivotal - Raukawa may have values, and Hauraki may have values. We need to talk together

Don't like the idea of prioritising values - Cultural values always come at the bottom of the list

There needs to be commitment from councils at all levels - from governance level in councils to work with governance of Māori

There needs to be a 'big picture' approach - eg Waihau River - high intensity of agricultural activity, we as Māori know the indicators of the change of the river. Council have said that the water take for farmers is sustainable, but now they say that the water levels are under pressure.

Fully support and highly recommend catchment based strategies - we as kaitiaki know what is happening in our catchments and how we can work together to deal with these issues of allocation

5.16 Te Mana Taiao o Raukawa

The river is like blood running through veins - the dams built on the river are like rubber bands which block the flow of blood and will ultimately be fatal.

Quadruple bottom line, the problems didn't happen overnight and we appreciate that it will take 50-100 years to rectify.

5.17 Alice Anderson

Would like an opportunity to explore co-management, co-regulation and delegated authority - these could become useful mechanisms to allow Māori to participate more effectively in the decision-making.

Willie Te Aho - Through these hui we have heard about EBOP process of ensuring representation at Regional Authority level, and we have heard the call for more commissioners who represent tangata whenua.

5.18 Alice Anderson

EBOP works for them, we could look at this.

In terms of commissioners, the lack of numbers makes it incredibly difficult for them.

It comes back to Regional and District Councils and we need to be involved at different levels, on a more proactive approach at the decision making end of policy and planning.

5.19 Philip White

It comes back to the people in the community, the local people who know what is happening on the ground and local ownership of the problems and answers is important. Money doesn't solve all the problems, acknowledges the work Raukawa has done with Kinleith, there are a lot of people here who do a lot for our environment. There is a real sense of willingness for people to work co-operatively.

5.20 Rajiv Raman (Hamilton City Council)

Council is interested in the outcome. What will come out of this - National environmental standards or national policy statements?

Paul's response: what do you think? Remember that this is the beginning of the work. We have heard throughout these hui how wonderful the RMA is, but the implementation has fallen off track. So we have been asked, are we using the tools that we have already? Is there actually a need for environmental standards? We have heard about guidelines. We have heard a number of differing views, we have heard councils crying out for guidance - but be careful what you wish for. What do you want?

Rajiv Raman No - to National policy statements - we don't want more policy or more thousand page documents. Yes to Environmental Standards

5.21 George Ria

The outcome that Māori have unanimously sought is to restore the mauri of the water for us to be sustained into the future. There is likely to be a similarity between your own ethnic values and ours. You are an individual and you have a view that might be different from your council viewpoint.

5.22 Willie Te Aho: Overview of the diversity of views from some of the hui to date

Waitara - representatives from the council stated that they were not working well with Māori

Kaitaia - there they said they don't want national standards; they want their own standards

Ngāti Whātua - they span two regional councils and nine district councils and they want consistency.

5.23 Te Mana Taiao o Raukawa

Within Raukawa there are a number of different local authorities, we duplicate our efforts on less resources than councils have. Any result needs to address Raukawa issues, but not at the expense of others.

5.24 Taipu Paki

Consistency and water quality - there are different levels. We want water to be clean. As an individual and whanau member, I want to see some standards put in place.

For our Marae, there have been changes in the requirements regarding water tank supply - so we had to bore down, now we can't bore down because the water quality is undrinkable and we cannot afford to link up to the supply. Requirements change and we have to deal with the hurdles.

5.25 Julian Williams

We seek consistency, we would like a standard that we write. The RMA uses the language of 'avoid, remedy or mitigate'. In reality, however, we always end up in the mitigation stage. Local governments need to be educated on treaty claims, councils try to avoid the conversation on the basis that they are not the Crown. We are going to talk about Treaty claims every time.

5.26 Norm Hill

For the record, the views of Raukawa and Hauraki are consistent with the views of Waikato - we desire clean water, and we are interested in talking about co- management rather than ownership. Sir Robert Mahuta's view prevails, that we know we own the river but we are interested in co-management.

6. Summary and Conclusion

6.1 Paul's reflection on key themes

• Governance - Māori need to be talked to at all levels. We need a holistic approach and talk across jurisdictions - co management, co regulation, delegated authority. These are about the rules that are set, what the rules say and how the rules are used. You don't want serial consultation - you want to be in it from the start, you want to have a say.
• Sustainable development - we need to have the right conversation about competing interests - currently we are in a linear conversation, we start at economic and cultural ends up at the end. We need to have a conversation which looks at all of the interests at once.
• Funding - there is work being done by Raukawa and should be considered as pilots - government needs to look around the land and see what pilots are already going on, taken notice of them and resource them.
• Principles being enshrined in legislation, any leg needs to be responsive to the needs of Māori
• The need for proactive approach to avoid situations like Taupo
• A strong call for iwi management plans and stopping the need for repetitive submissions on everything going on
• The need to set high expectations - eg the need to be able to drink water, in time. Charting the course to do it. The intergenerational responsibility in thinking about this issue.

6.2 George Ria

Education is important - it is a two-way process - government (central and local) needs education and we need to work together.

There has been too much emphasis on economic interests. Other interests need to be taken into account.

Congratulates Tainui for the structure and process of the feedback in hui.

Closing kōrero - Henare Smith

Closing karakia - Mac Karauria 1.30pm

Last updated: 25 November 2008