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Greytown hui

3 February 2005, 10am

1. Karakia/ Mihimihi (Pāora Ammunson)

2. Introductions

Dougal Morrison, Matthew Hall (Ministry for Economic Development); George Ria, Rebecca Martel (Ministry of Agriculture & Forestry); Arnu Turvey (Te Puni Kōkiri); Andrew Luke, Livia Hollins (Ministry for the Environment); Willie and Linda Te Aho (Facilitator and minute secretary - Indigenous Corporate Solutions Limited)

3. Introductions of those in attendance

During introductions, the following issues were raised:

3.1 Peter Flynn

there is an observation that the Crown is not doing a good job. Our perspective is listened to but action is not taken. Our old people talked about these issues with a lot of passion. Many of those old people have passed on. The hope today is an outcome will be reached where we are doing something.

3.2 Pāora Ammunson

Restoring the Papawai stream is a project of recent importance to us. Because we are an inland hapū, fresh water fish life is very important to us. This is reflected in the carvings on our wharenui, of eels and other fish life. Our lake, Wairarapa, is one of the bigger North Island Lakes, and there are a number of issues that affect our water, such as for example the rapid increase in lifestyle blocks.

4. Presentation

Background to Māori Reference Group who have helped put together some of the ideas for discussion today.

Key issues for discussion:

  • Water Quality is declining
  • Water Allocation - not enough water to go around
  • How to manage water bodies that have particular importance at a national level

Solutions:

These suggested solutions include some that are new and some that build upon what it currently happening

  • Provide National direction
  • Central Government Involved
  • Working Together eg of Lake Taupo programme as an idea that came from Tūwharetoa
  • Provide More tools - eg ideas around tendering for/auctioning water

These are initial ideas and any discussion will be valued.

5. Discussion

5.1 Prue Harper

There will need to be metering of urban water systems - people are not interested in conservation unless their pocket is affected.

5.2 Michael Roera

People are not educated about water use, farm irrigation is operating when it is raining - the inefficiency is frustrating. Also, some people do not have the funds to pay for water use and we need to be aware of this. Some savings for water could be achieved through council checking each house to make sure there are no water leaks or wastage.

5.3 Geoff Doring (Royal Forest and Bird)

For domestic use - why is there not more use of rainwater tanks? Water needs to be valued more. The sorts of attitudes of some people are causing erosion. This country is slowly washing to sea and destroying our water resources. The numbers of dairy farmers have increased, there are some good farmers but there are some bad farming practices. Also, eeling stocks are dying out.

5.4 Michael Roera

How can we teach our youth traditional ways if the eels are dying out?

5.5 Pāora Ammunson

When consulted about water use, they (local Māori) have acknowledged that someone has to regulate the use of the asset. We, the people have worked alongside authorities, but our support of applications should not be read to concede ownership of the asset to the authority. If we begin to trade property rights in asset, this will raise issues about what our (Māori) ownership rights are. Assertions of ownership run through customary ownership. We are large-scale landowners of lands from which water springs.

This is the first time we have heard Government Departments talk about property rights openly. What legislation vests ownership to Crown?

The lake, Te Karu o te Ika (The Eye of Māui's Fish), is the place where all rivers and streams meet. According to the stories of our old people, the water was once black with eels. Customary trade of eels from the lake is noteworthy and illustrates the lake's importance. How do we go about making our lake a waterway of national importance?

Our lake is not treated very well. We want to find any and everyway possible to raise the profile of our lake as a place of significance to us.

There was some discussion regarding the international recognition of the lake

It is worthwhile pursuing the making of this lake a water body of national importance. That would be an incentive to clean up the lake.

The facilitator called for some ideas about possible solutions to the problems posed at the hui

5.6 Pāora Ammunson

Two of the towns still discharge sewerage into the rivers, and this should be addressed.

5.7 Pita Flynn

Consultants are employed to give advice on sewerage, why isn't Central Government showing leadership and giving Local Government a blueprint on how to handle sewerage more efficiently?

The three District Councils have different approaches to land subdivision. Ruamahanga is the only water body that has an esplanade reserve. District Councils claim that they do not have resources to buy land to put water bodies into esplanade reserves. Central Government should step in immediately and assist.

Through the Māori Liaison Group, the Regional Council announces six times throughout the year what they plan to do. A good example is the riparian planting scheme. Massey University (Professor Tilman of the Natural Resources Department) is interested in coming in to do a total water catchment management plan. This water catchment management plan is a good tool for this area to look after our resources. It could involve the community, Local Government and the iwi authorities.

On the issue of "Enhancing Māori Participation" - Pita is surprised to see this up for comment. He expects the Crown to give some direction as to what the relationship is between Crown and Māori.

From his health/hauora background - a key issue has been the loss of Mahinga Kai - there is still so much room for improvement - our voice has not been listened to.

5.8 Geoff Doring

The Regional Council has a bigger population and is better resourced to take leadership on management of water bodies.

Some of the Councils and councillors do not have the expertise on areas of conservation. Though, Greater Wellington does seem to have the expertise and try to keep in contact.

5.9 Arnu Turvey (TPK)

Queried why a Water Management Plan would be beneficial?

5.10 Pita Flynn

The expertise of Massey University could be used to study the area over 10 years, to identify problems involved and to involve the communities in the research. In the process currently, it is not working. The Regional Council is under resourced and a lot of raw data is not known such as data on the effluent quality of the outlet of the lake. We need information to make decisions. Also, a local approach to the Water Management Plan would ensure local buy in.

Involving local Māori - the discussion document highlights that there has been some Māori input

5.11 Faith Barber

Faith is currently working on a document regarding Ruamahanga - integrated catchment - a long- term research project. This is focussed on bringing in all the different interests groups to work together in an integrated manner - which is the way that it should be.

5.12 Pita Flynn

There are processes currently undertaken to address issues - with the project relating to Papawai stream being a good example.

5.13 Pāora Ammunson

Pursuant to the Treaty of Waitangi, there should be some robust processes for participation and consultation.

Where does kawanatanga and rangatiratanga start and stop?

In terms of administration and management - at what level will Tino Rangatiratanga be recognised compared with other interests?

There is a range of views amongst Māori:

One view - There should be an iwi/hapū alongside decision-making bodies

On another - rangatiratanga requires being directly involved from the beginning of the process

On the issue of providing tools which was discussed today, we need to analyse each of the tools proposed and have an input into who takes what decision at what level? How closely does each decision affect us will determine how strongly we wish to participate on each issue.

Treaty Claims - one of our claims relates specifically to decision-making and how Māori people and their interests have been marginalised in breach of the Treaty. In terms of grievances, there are many industrial sites and sewerage plants that are close to and/or closely impact upon sites of significance to local Māori, but not to the 'majority'. Over time the cumulative effects of this has impacted seriously upon local iwi/hapū.

Central Government should set standards on how things are monitored. There is a lack of consistency on how Councils monitor.

Poses a question: How do you get resourced to participate effectively in the analysis and protection of fresh water eg a marae's ability to obtain independent expert advice to analyse and critique some of the scientific material put before them or the methodology used?

Some iwi/hapū have whānau members with this expertise, we could apply for funding to educate our own people.

5.14 Geoff Doring

Forest and Bird supports the need for independent advice and resourcing for this to happen.

5.15 A statement was made from the floor regarding mahinga Kai

Stop the discharge of pollution and riparian strips by water ways alone will not led to the return of mahinga kai. There needs to be proactive regeneration strategies.

5.16 Jason Kerehi

Areas around our lakes have been impacted upon over a number of years, in terms of the food sources and also the natural filtering systems have been altered over the last 40-50 years, and certain weeds have spread which has negative impacts. We are dealing with a completely new environment now. You could never get it back to the way it used to be.

5.17 Pita Flynn

Freshwater aquaculture has potential as a solution.

5.18 Pāora Ammunson

This is a big issue for our community

5.19 Jenny Doring

Notes that there have been discharges of paint into water, some work was done to clean that up,

5.20 Dougal Morrison

In terms of the suggestion for national policy statements, and national standards- what are the pros and cons of going down that track?

5.21 Geoff Doring

Education of councillors is needed as many do not appreciate or understand environmental issues.

5.22 Pāora Ammunson

Political energy gets applied when there is a public protest about their lakes etc. So there needs to be some national guidance/commitment to ensure that priorities are not determined through ad hoc political processes. Ultimately, decisions ought to be taken by the people who bear the consequences of those decisions - not from central government.

5.23 Pita Flynn

Pita raised questions about education at primary schools and secondary schools.

"Freshwater for Sustainable Future" how we are living is not sustainable. Resource consent processes often come down to personality issues.

5.24 Pāora Ammunson

In terms of education it would be beneficial to have a record of the stories and histories of our stream, both in terms of Māori stories and other social histories.

5.25 Michael Roera

These kinds of issues could be incorporated into national standards in education, horticulture and agriculture.

5.26 Faith Barber

There needs to be a change in attitude towards water. Faith grew up with the concept of New Zealand being 'clean and green', yet we are not as clean and green as we promote. Our younger and future generations need to be taught to value water and protect our waterways more.

The Resource Consent processes do not promote efficiency of use of water. The Fonterra Accord is a good start.

We need to begin with small steps at a local level eg Papawai Stream is a small stream, people will see the benefits of the clean up project and hopefully with adopt it in other places.

5.27 Pita Flynn

We are still clear felling hillsides which inevitably result in problems in the stream. There could be contour bands and buffer zones.

5.28 Dougal Morrison

Dougal talked about some best practice models in forestry and noted that it is often the roading that is established to harvest that causes the silt problems.

5.29 Jenny Doring

Some community groups have 'adopted' streams and set about cleaning them up.

5.30 Faith Barber

Transferable water permits - may have worked well overseas, the true cost of water is not reflected anywhere.

If there was a solution whereby people had to pay for the resource, they may reflect on their practices (eg irrigating in the rain) and there may be a real role for water metering. As a nation we need to start reflecting the value of water. Some tradeoffs could also be non monetary eg riparian planting.

5.31 Michael Roera

He has used 1080, and sprays that were purportedly not poisonous. But we now know they were poisonous and harmful not only to humans but to the environment.

5.32 Pāora Ammunson

Asked about liability and who should bear the cost when things go wrong?

There needs to be some guidance from the CG about liability - this will take some of the personality issues out of Local Government.

One marae in the rohe is built on the side of the Ruamahanga River. These days there is not enough water to carry out marae functions as it is being taken by other major users like the vineyards. If more foresight had been shown in the past, the disappearance of water sources wouldn't have occurred.

Marae networks are strong in places and could be useful if there are ideas about local level initiatives for communication of those ideas. Sometimes these networks are overlooked, when marae can often be exemplars of good practice.

5.33 Jason Kerehi

In terms of the ownership of water bodies by hapū (eg Te Arawa own their lake beds), are there any issues for us in these plans in terms of those of us who own our water bodies.

5.34 Dougal Morrison

Noted his understanding that iwi own the lakebeds, but no one owns the water, Crown vests management of the water in regional and local councils. It is hard to put a value on it if no one actually owns the water.

5.35 Andrew Luke

There has been some discussion about what documents and resources are available about freshwater. He notes that there is a resource relating to the Taieri River that can be made available.

5.36 Dougal Morrison

Monitoring water quality can be done a lot better, there is an opportunity to place more focus on this issue.

5.37 Pāora Ammunson

Flooding is a big issue.

5.38 Faith Barber

Congratulated the Ministry for the Environment and Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry - this is a good initiative and hopefully people will make submissions and something good will come out of it.

6. Summary and Conclusion

Rebecca Martel identified some of the key points discussed:

  • Acknowledged practical ideas around water
  • Role of Māori governments in water management
  • Value of riparian management
  • Integrated catchment management
  • Although sewerage systems are not part of programme, there is a link between them and water quality
  • Mahinga kai - they are valuable and they act as an indicator of environment

Arnu Turvey added the following key points:

  • Need for more information and how that information could be integrated into the education system, eg recording histories
  • Need for more accessible information
  • More interaction - he is working upon improving Māori engagement in Local Government

George Ria

Māna e whakamārama atu i ngā ahuatanga katoa e pā ana ki te wai ki ngā tari o te kāwanatanga. His job is to explain Māori values to those in Government Departments.

Māori personify everything in nature - in terms of the question who is educating us? Papatūānuku, and Tawhirimātea, this is who educates us - we suffer the consequences when we do not appropriately care for Papatūānuku.

There have been a number of positive aspects that have come from the discussion today.

Trade-offs - ko te pūtea - things are driven by the dollar. Members of his whānau in Gisborne are involved in large-scale farming and there are impacts on their own waterways and food sources.

The things said at this hui will be valued, the fruits may not be seen today, but they will be seen in time.

7. Closing Korero - Pāora Ammunson

Kāore anō kia whai wāhi kia wānanga i ngā tikanga o te tapu, noa, te rāhui, te waiora, te whakapapa o ngā wai. Me whakatū tetehi hui, he roopu reo Māori, ka pehea te rerekē o ngā kōrero kia puta mai.

(It would be great to hold a wānanga on aspects of Māori law and philosophy regarding freshwater. If such a hui were to be held in Māori, one could only imagine the difference in discussion and outcome.)

Closing karakia 1.30pm

Last updated: 25 November 2008