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Gisborne hui

22 February 2005

1. Karakia/ Mihimihi (Rapiata Ria)

I hope that you are here to tell us how you will help clean up our river, Waikanae Creek. I grew up there and we once enjoyed the different kai: flounder, tuna, mullet but now it is totally desecrated. And I must mention our mighty river, the Waipaoa.

2. Introductions

Mike Jebson, George Ria (Ministry of Agriculture & Forestry); Claire Nesus (Te Puni Kōkiri); Sandra McIntyre, Livia Hollins (Ministry for the Environment); Willie and Linda Te Aho (Facilitator and minute secretary - Indigenous Corporate Solutions Limited).

3. Introductions of those in attendance (see separate attendance list)

During introductions the following points were made:

3.1 Barney Tupara (Ngāti Oneone)

Our waters are Waimata, Taruheru, Tūranganui and other streams that go out to the sea.

Ngāti Oneone would like to enter a relationship with Government, to sit down with the Government to talk about our concerns - either department by department, or this group on another day.

Specifically we want to enter a separate process to this to address issues around rejuvenating and restoring our rivers to pre-Cook times, to reintroduce our kai that is no longer there. We also want to address the impact that the waters in their present condition are having on our taniwha.

3.2 Roma Te Aho

My rivers are Mōtu, Wairūrū and Awatere.

Fish come in from the sea to spawn in the river mouth, and then go back out to sea. I would like to see the river mouths protected.

3.3 Baker Postelnik (Friends of Mangawai Estuaries)

After the air that we breathe, water is most important.  

3.4 Tini Harmer

We own our lands and waterways, councils have put up walls, we want to break those down and talk, I am here not to be told, but to speak.

3.5 Reg Rangihuna

I am cynical - in all of our dealings with the Government (eg Foreshore and Seabed) we have come off second best.

I am concerned about legislation - because it always takes our rights. You are the messenger and we won't shoot the messenger, we want to talk about these issues. We have concerns and we want to voice those concerns. I am standing for our Tūpuna and for future generations who will need access to freshwater.

3.6 Jason Koia

It is a full-time job trying to keep up with these consultation rounds. I agree with everything Barney says (except for partnership).  

3.7 Miniata Westrupp (Chair of the iwi of Rongomaiwahine)

My passion has always been for my people for their land and what belongs to them. I would like to be around a table discussing these issues. We want management and to be a part of the decision making.

(10.45am to 11.05am - Break for morning tea)

Willie Te Aho explained the process for the hui - this is an opportunity for people to have their say - there is also an opportunity for making submissions by the 18 th March. If you, like Barney, wish to engage further with the Government, then make that point.

4. Presentation (Mike Jebson - Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry)

4.1 Background -

  • Rather than saying "I'm here from the Ministry and I'm here to help you", Mike's version is "I'm here from the Ministry and I'm here for you to help me". Mike explained his responsibility together with Sue Powell (Ministry for the Environment) to lead the cross-government team focussing upon water.
  • Via this programme, the Government is recognising that water management is not going to meet the needs of the future.
  • The programme involves freshwater from the mountains to the sea - as was said in Dunedin, the rivers and streams are the arteries and veins of Papatūānuku:
    • Mike gave a background of his own experience of declining water quality in the streams he enjoyed in his upbringing, and the value of water in terms of his family's farming background in the Canterbury Plains
  • This programme focuses upon "sustainable development" - a new paradigm for managing water in New Zealand
  • We need a healthy water system for all dimensions and values relating to water - social, health, cultural, spiritual and economic (hydro, irrigation - the wealth of the nation depends upon the land), environmental, mahinga kai
  • This discussion document and the water programme reflect some 18 months of initial thinking around what the problems are and some proposals and ideas to address those problems. This stage is testing that thinking, and that is why we are here today. If there are other problems or other ideas, we value your feedback.
  • Some of the preliminary ideas were tested with
    • a general stakeholders group (eg fish and game; federated farmers, FOMA, energy companies); and
    • a Māori Reference Group - a useful forum: Heitia Hiha, Waaka Vercoe, Paul Morgan, Jane West, Gail Tipa (however this document is a government document - and if you don't like the document - don't blame the Māori Reference Group).

4.2 The two main issues

  • Water quality is declining -
    • Examples of high profile cases eg Rotorua, Taupo
  • Allocation - involves taking of water, as well as issues around how much water should remain in rivers. There is not enough water to meet everyone's desires and needs. Demand continues to grow. There needs to be much wiser use - how can we meet those needs so that the rivers don't suffer, and so that communities don't suffer.

There is also another issue that we will be addressing: Water bodies of National Importance - this issue needs to be tested more with communities. To date, the Government has been 'fire fighting' the specific major problems, what are other nationally significant water bodies that the government can step in and provide assistance with - as it has in Waitaki, Taupo, Rotorua, Rotoiti? What is the role of Central role in this issue

Mike referred to the Treaty Relationship reference in the document

New Zealanders have taken water for granted for too long. We cannot continue to do so.

4.3 Possible Solutions - Ideas for a new approach? (Sandra McIntyre)

The ideas that I will talk about are just ideas and we really need to hear what you think about them. You may disagree with our ideas and have better ideas.

(a) Providing National Direction

Local and Regional councils manage freshwater - and they have been left alone to do this. But what happens where there are issues that affect the country as a whole, or national priorities?

Some ideas are:

  • To make use of RMA provisions for national policy statements and national environmental standards - this would allow priorities for water management and environmental bottom lines to be set up front - eg how much water should stay in a lake or river (currently there no national policies or standards);
  • How to identify priorities - Government targeting where it gets more directly involved in water management - identifying the 'nationally important' water bodies - eg water quality in Rotorua Lakes - maybe government should be involved earlier.

(b) Central Government could become more involved in developing best practice information and sharing around information, funding, pilot programmes

(c) Working together

  • How can all different sectors (eg councils, scientists, Māori) come together to address some of the problems
  • Raising awareness - education - Sandra has heard many times that rural people are aware of the problems with water, but people in the cities are not.
  • Building relationships with Māori
    • Clearly Māori have a really big interest. We want to look at ways of making Māori participation more effective. What other things can we be doing to make this more effective?
  • Pilot programmes eg Lake Taupo (cooperative approach), sharing information

(d) Providing more tools for regional councils

  • The discussion booklet sets out some ideas around comparing consents (rather than looking at applications in isolation) should there be some kind of auctioning and tendering of water?
  • Transfer of water permits and consents - if some have more water than they need, should transfer be made easier?
  • Local Government prepares plans - local authorities could be required to prepare a plan concerning 'big' issues relating to water.
  • Providing a way for councils to reduce the taking to address issues of over allocation and water quality - is it something we need to look at?

As Mike has said, we need to hear from you as to which ideas are good and which are not.

5. Discussion

5.1 Roma Te Aho

My late aunt lived near Lake Rotorua which is one of the first lakes polluted in this country. The lake has been choked. This issue was put before the government and nothing seems to have been done.

With regard to our rivers, which were mighty rivers when I was a child, they are getting smaller. Things like the Public Works Act, and the digging into our rivers, digging out stones, have caused our rivers to change their courses (eg in Te Araroa). This is like changing the course of nature and an imbalance occurs - and the whole ecological system breaks down.

On the East Coast - a remote part of the country - water is a problem, and in some places it now costs people a lot to buy water.

In the summer the Waiapu River shrinks, and I have seen the damage with my own eyes. We need to stop discharging waste into the rivers - farmers have been found guilty of doing this.

I grew up with my grandparents and they were conservationists. In those days, you only took enough to feed your families and the balance remained in tact.

There needs to be funding to help people in dire straits (ie those who have no water for basic needs). We need to leave the rivers alone - stop digging into them, stop making fountains - this is a wasteful use of a precious commodity. The Local Council has received a number of complaints, but nothing gets done.

5.2 Barney Tupara

I want to clarify a basic premise - my Tipuna (Rawiri Te Eke) signed Te Tiriti under which the government was granted kawanatanga and in return our tino rangatiratanga was affirmed. Based upon that, we still retain ownership of the water. If that is not the premise, then that needs to be stated up front.

If as with foreshore the Prime Minister is going to say that she owns the foreshore, is the government saying that the Crown owns the water? That will determine or impact upon our view.

Working on the premise that we still own the water, and our reliance on the Crown to look after it, then you should give us the resources to manage it ourselves, because you have not done a good job.

I am concerned about the whole process - water is not something that could be sold. What is the real agenda here? Where is this really all leading? Water is so essential to all of us.

You cannot give local Government this responsibility to manage water, this is central government responsibility. To delegate is to abrogate duties under the Treaty. We retained ownership. Your Queen did not say she would give it to someone else to manage.

Local government cannot do this job, we cannot rely the local government in this area them to make decisions that are good for us, we have had to go to the Environment Court time and time again.

Mike: This document does not make any statements that change the status quo - that the government has guardianship of the waters.

5.3 Reg Rangihuna

We challenge that the government has guardianship.

We have an international right as tangata whenua to our property. We are not trusting of the last 160 years. Last year we went through the process of the Foreshore Seabed and we were hard done by and now we are talking about water and it is scary - in some countries, they have civil wars over these types of issues.

The New Zealand Parliament is a law unto themselves - they are making international relationships to sell our water.

Legislation looks after particular people, but not our own. We still welcome all people who make this country their home.

Is this just another debacle - grabbing our taonga again, just like the foreshore? Our property rights are being taken from us. We are talking about legal issues. We want to assert our international rights which existed prior to the Treaty. What next? Will we lose our land? I consider this country to be Aotearoa, to be Oneone, I am not a 'New Zealander', I am tangata whenua.

Who knows best? If you go to a community - they know best. Really "consultation" has been about people coming to a community telling us what you are going to do next.

We live off the water, we live off eels. We have a number of claims dating back to 1840. We have lost 63 million acres of land that we were kaitiaki of. We are sceptical about this whole issue.

This process seems all pre-meditated. People in Te Araroa pay hundreds of dollars for rates and they get nothing in return.

Long drops have been outlawed, people pay money for septic tanks that do not work.

5.4 Miniata Westrupp

I like to talk about my experiences - I was brought up at Māhia by my grandparents. We never had tanks, we had a little stream that flowed beside whare, from that we had cooking water, washed clothes etc. We looked after that stream - we physically brought flat rocks. Where water came down from the top end, that was the drinking and cooking place. Further down was for washing, and further down there were the Muscovy Ducks, then out to sea.

The water always looked clean, and today the same stream has a different look. We didn't take care of it.

I want to remember the good things that we had. We had a well that never went dry - near the stream. We had a marae close by.

There are a lot of little streams in Mahia like that, and springs, we know where they are.

If you look at the map, we are just about an island. Water is a big thing for us, there is more water than land itself. We need help, we need to sit down face to face and make decisions for us. All these things we have been saying in other forums.

5.5 Ruby Smith (Administrator Rongomaiwahine Trust)

Ruby tabled a summary of key points from Te Whānau o Rongomaiwahine:

Rongomaiwahine - Importance of Water

  • Our identity is linked to our Kaimoana - and the abundance of our kaimoana
  • Wai Māori is directly linked to Waitai and kaimoana - they are inseparable. Health of one affects the other.
  • The health of the waitai and kaimoana is the test of the health of our freshwaters
  • Our kaimoana is declining for a range of reasons including eh declining of water quality due to pollution. We are taking responsibility and leadership for overfishing (both commercial and customary) but we need to work jointly with central and local government to address the issues of water quality
    • We are aiming to improve our relationship with local government

Direct impacts on our water

  • Large scale farming (and we are farmers) - direct pollution of waterways through fertilisers, stock in the water ways
  • Forestry clear felling - flooding at Kopuawhara and Kaiwaitau River.
  • Residential developments - 200 new residential sections for this year alone. New sewerage system for Mahia beach - we don't have proper infrastructure for this development.

Treaty of Waitangi issue - the priority is to sort out the relationship. We believe that it should include:

  • Joint governance (look at EBOP model) joint management (Ngāi Tahu experience); joint planning; joint regulation; joint compliance and enforcement (for non compliance)
  • Resourcing/scholarships for Māori to be educated in the areas of sciences and sustainability - we need to excel in all of these areas
  • Rongomaiwahine - we want all discharges to eventually meet drinking water standards

Consultation

This is a good start but it is not consultation. We recommend that the Crown resource us to enable us to hold another meeting amongst ourselves, to enable us to meet with our neighbouring iwi. We have our own specialists and policy writers who can meet with the Crown and write a joint policy.

Key take home points for discussion document:

  • Treaty relationship should be at the top
  • Māori values - our Rongomaiwahine values - should be clearly stated
  • Our water standards - drinkability - should be noted as the goal for discharges
  • Fence off waterways and riparian strips together with Land based effluent treatment
  • Recycling of water from rooves to roading (which is one of the biggest pollutants)
  • Education programmes for schools, communities - "Be a tidy Kiwi"
  • It may take time to achieve, but the biggest thing we need is commitment.

5.6 Jason Koia

  • We (Māori) had sophisticated planning and environmental systems mai rā anō (since time immemorial). Legislation has taken away our rights and excluded us (eg Public Works Act - confiscation; the Town & Country Planning Act moved tangata whenua and kaitiakitanga away from iwi kainga).
  • Te Tiriti o Waitangi did not cede property rights, or sovereignty.
  • Refers to Page 12: 2.2 "Roles and relationships" - The right to manage water is vested in the Crown, which delegates management responsibility to local councils"
  • We want you to show us how the Crown got that presumed ownership over the water.
  • Based on our previous experience with the aquaculture consultation and foreshore, whatever input we make, will be ignored.
  • I have looked through the document and cannot see any reference to wāhi tapu - even though it is legislated for. This is critical. The RMA has not had the effect it was meant to, because of the way local government's application of the Act.
  • He refers to 2.4 (page 14) the figure - 80% of water allocated for irrigation is driven by economic factors. However if we had been able to exercise our kaitiakitanga rights we would not have let what is happening happen.
  • There needs to be riparian management plan to stop tutae going into streams and to stop sediment. Only kaitiaki know how to address problems relating to our wahi tapu.
  • As reconciliation and pathway for healing, there need to be development plans that local communities can become involved in.
  • Issue 6 (page 16) Māori participation in water management could be improved
  • Despite sections 6(e), 7 and 8 RMA and the ability for 'positive discrimination' (through sections of Human Rights Act & the Bill of Rights Act), other provisions such as s23 RMA limit our ability to exercise our kaitiaki rights.
  • Is this real consultation that will be given effect to? How can we trust the Crown - a thief that is now a judge?
  • Referring to Issue 8: Water infrastructure
    • There is no iwi management plan in Ruawaipu. Waiapu area is ranked as lowest decile - we can't sustain ourselves, so how can we sustain our land and our waterways. He agrees with the points made about the East Coast. There are pathways forward which are provided for in legislation, such as tangata whenua development plans.
  • He does not believe that either Local Government or Central Government is a treaty partner.

5.7 Mike Jebson

Firstly I acknowledge that treaty issues are complex and it is difficult for a public servant to get into those issues: but I do confirm that this programme is not about taking rights away from Māori.

Wāhi tapu is recognised in the RMA, and there is no suggestion to change those provisions. This programme seeks to make those provisions more effective.

We have heard about some good models in other parts of the country (eg Invercargill) - there is a positive relationship between iwi and local government. We want to share information like that and encourage more of that in other parts of the country.

There has been some work on Riparian Management schemes. Via National Policy Statements and Standards, Central Government can be more involved in encouraging more of these.

Reiterates that Crown has not asserted ownership, but it has asserted a responsibility for management based upon advice from Crown Law. We will note your request for the basis upon which the Crown asserts the right to manage and delegate responsibility for water.

The issue of discharge of sewage into rivers is a key issue and is being addressed.

In terms of the 'agenda' - it is sustainable development - economics is part of that - but there are other parts to it. We have had too much of an emphasis on economics and we want to bring it back into balance. There is a legitimate criticism that the Crown has been missing in action on water management issues.

We have come from a legacy of NZ thinking of itself as a water rich country and we cannot continue to think like that anymore. Rotorua has shown us that.

5.8 George Ria

In terms of the timeline for this agenda - there is no intention for this to be completed before the elections. There is a strong commitment from the Ministries to hold back and allow people to have a say. If you believe that the Treaty is the strategy to take you forward, then by all means use it. It is absolutely clear that we need to look after our water, and for Māori to use our values to exercise our kaitiakitanga.

Jason - Our vision and strategy is based on native title and our tikanga and other strategies.

George invited Jason to make a submission that sets out that vision and strategy clearly.

5.9 Roma Te Aho

Retaining trees and planting more trees are vitally important to stop road slips (eg Waioeka Gorge) and erosion. We could use the unemployed to plant trees. Atareta Poananga is trying her best, but she is a voice in the wilderness. We need a partnership - because we need to be recognised, our people know the land, the sea and the rivers from when we were babies, we have been taught how to look after things. We need to work together. My grandmother, Mihikotukutuku, (wahine rangatira of Te Whānau a Apanui) was presented to King George VI, and was presented a scroll which confirmed that Mihikotukutuku owned the land, seas, and waterways. We need our tino rangatiratanga back.

5.10 Wairata Te Oneone

Question: where is the mana coming from to overrule the sovereign council of Te Oneone? Parekura should have come, but in his absence tables a Summons to Witness for Conspiracy to Defraud Native Title.

5.11 Baker Postelnik

The top priority has to be to clean up all sources of water: rivers, tributaries, streams and lakes.

Honouring the treaty involves showing respect for Māori cultural, tradition and environment in which Māori culture and tradition developed. That is: pristine forests, clean rivers, unpolluted estuaries and coasts.

It also involves mutual tolerance with the different ways and means we use to achieve our goals. (The concepts of tapu and noa, rahui and others)

We are not the same - but we are or ought to be equal. Or ideas, knowledge and wisdom have to receive equal consideration. Too many Māori people have embraced pakeha ideas to the detriment of our society. Too few Pākehā have embraced Māori wisdom - to enrich our lives.

Politicians at all levels have to be constantly reminded that we are not an American suburb! We don't want to buy water in bottles or tankers. We don't want all the chemicals that are poured into town water to make it potable. (Auckland City Water smells, stinks like a chemist shop). It is time we put our environment and culture first and help all of our people to live the good life.

My question is: "How can we get Parliament to understand that the small community on the East Coast who has seen a river deteriorate to nothing, so that they have to buy their water, that that community knows more about the rivers than they do"?

5.12 Reg Rangihuna

Question to the GDC representatives: What was so wrong with long drops which have been outlawed - in rural areas? And yet in the cities we are pumping waste out to our sea?

Response: Unsure about the context - problems arise in small communities where there are too many.

Baker suggested the idea of compost toilets.

Response: There is a problem with some who may look after those, and some may not, when they go wrong they go very wrong.

6. Summary of key points

6.1 Mike Jebson reflected upon what he heard

  • Fundamental issues about the Treaty and international rights and how they impact upon water
  • That there are flaws in the document
  • A clear statement that you want to see us again, that there cannot be just a once around the country and that is it
  • Concerns about how things are operating in this area - partnerships that aren't there (eg with council)
  • Suggestions such as riparian planting
  • That water is so fundamental to so many people
  • That the Crown has been failing in its duty to address these issues
  • That Māhia is looking at models that might work in the face of challenges such as growth in residential demand and forestry etc
  • Concerns about 'playing with nature' and the impact on people
  • Issues about ownership - why is the Crown asserting its right to control water? (this has not been an uncommon challenge coming from Māori)
  • That the Treaty is about tolerance, equality and respect
  • That water is a big issue and a long term issue
  • That the Crown is not recognising the sovereignty of the council and that you (the sovereign council) want to hear about these issues firsthand.

6.2 George Ria

There are some people here who might be considered to be "radicals". You play an important role to effect change. Ngā Tama Toa fought for Te Reo, and for Te Tiriti.

George agrees that there has been too much emphasis on economic factors. There are two peoples in this country, and we all have values. Balance needs to be restored in the areas of cultural, social and environment.

Our water is the lifeblood of Papatūānuku, without it we die.

6.3 Reg Rangihuna

Question What is different about this process compared with others? Is there a change in mindset why we should trust this process?

George Ria - This is the first time that your comments are being captured and they will be packaged along with all other minutes from other hui and put in front of ministers. You also have an opportunity to view the minutes from other hui. I will do my best to ensure that your views are visible in this process but at the end of the day, I do not make the decisions.

6.4 Closing Kōrero - Rapiata Ria

Some of the suggestions put forward to you today have been excellent, and I hope that you will be able to utilise some of them to help on this very important kaupapa.

Closing Karakia - 1.30pm

Last updated: 25 November 2008