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Dunedin hui

11 February 2005, 10am

1. Karakia/ Mihimihi (Edward Ellison)

2. Introductions

Mike Jebson, Rebecca Martel, George Ria, Graeme Elliott (Ministry of Agriculture & Forestry); Arnu Turvey (Te Puni Kōkiri); Livia Hollins (Ministry for the Environment); Willie and Linda Te Aho (Facilitator and minute secretary - Indigenous Corporate Solutions Limited).

3. Introductions of those in attendance

4. Presentation (Mike Jebson)

4.1 Background

  • The Water Programme of Action has been led by the Prime Minister and involves a 'whole of government' approach.
  • The programme involves freshwater from the mountains to the sea - this programme focuses upon certain freshwater bodies
    • Urban water supplies, and fisheries management are not covered in this programme - but links to these issues are recognised
  • This programme is about improving how we manage water which is a fundamental resource
  • We need a healthy water system for all dimensions and values relating to water - social, cultural, spiritual and economic, environmental
  • This discussion document and the water programme reflect some 18 months of initial thinking around what the problems are and some proposals and ideas. The next stage is testing that thinking, and that is why we are here today. If there are other problems or other ideas, we value your feedback. This is not a sham consultation, we are here to listen.
  • Some of the ideas were tested with a general stakeholders group (eg fishers, farmers, FOMA); and a Māori reference group was established to get some preliminary advice.

4.2 Three main issues

  • Allocation - involves taking of water, as well as issues around how much water should remain in rivers. Demand exceeds supply - there needs to be much wiser use.
  • Water quality is declining - Mike gave a background of his own experience of declining water quality in the streams he enjoyed in his upbringing, and the value of water in terms of his family's farming background in the Canterbury Plains
    • Examples of acute cases eg Rotorua area, affected by bugs and algal bloom, if we don't do something about this, this will become the norm
  • Water bodies of national importance - this issue needs to be tested more with communities. What are the nationally significant water bodies that the government can step in and provide assistance with - as it has in Waitaki, Taupo, Rotorua, Rotoiti?

Note: The ideas that we have come up with to date, do not involve the Government taking responsibility away from Regional councils, but to provide assistance.

4.3 Possible Solutions - Ideas for a new approach? (Rebecca Martel)

  • (a) Providing National Direction
    Some ideas are:
    • To make use of RMA provisions for national policy statements and national environmental standards - this would allow priorities for water management and environmental bottom lines to be set up front - eg how much water should stay in a lake or river (currently there no national policies or standards);
    • Government targeting where it gets more directly involved in water management - identifying the 'nationally important' water bodies
  • (b) Central Govt could become more involved in developing best practice information and sharing around information, funding - this can be barrier to both councils and iwi, pilot programmes
  • (c) Working together
    • Raising awareness - education Building relationships with Māori
    • Improving iwi relationships with local government eg improving regional council uptake of Māori participation; training, funding, capacity building - we would like to hear your views on this.
    • Pilot programmes eg Lake Taupo (cooperative approach), sharing information
  • (d) Providing more tools
    • Current first in first served might not be appropriate anymore. The discussion booklet sets out some ideas around auctioning and tendering of water.
    • Transfer of water permits and consents
    • Local Government prepares plans - local authorities could be required to prepare a plan concerning water issues.

5. Discussion

5.1 Edward Ellison

Edward has read the document and he has not seen any reference to ownership of water, is the Crown claiming ownership or is it claiming its right to make laws to manage the water? This is an important point for tangata whenua.

Mike Jebson: The Crown is exercising its responsibility for proper management of water, not changing the current understanding of ownership of water. Mike referred to the Meridian judgment in relation to Meridian's permits to take water from the upper Waitaki River and whether that gave exclusive rights. The judge's decision leaned towards more a right.

5.2 Edward Ellison

National policy statements pose risks for tangata whenua, often these interests are at a hapū/iwi level and a national process might override many of those critical interests. Water is integral to identity and wellbeing locally. Our local characteristics need to be reflected in any water plan.

Local councils will welcome guidance. Their systems have not worked and it is difficult for them to change - there are all sorts of challenges and pressures politically - that is the nature of the council beast. The government should be applauded for taking this step - regional councils do need to come back into synch.

Sections 6(e), 7 and 8 of the Resource Management Act (RMA) are great tools for achieving Māori aspirations, but performance is variable in meeting those provisions. Although the RMA was passed in 1991, it was not until the Ngāi Tahu settlement Act and apology that we saw a real change in attitude by councils.

5.3 Gail Tipa

The use of the terminology 'nationally significant' can cause difficulties for Māori. Even agreeing upon what is regionally significant can be difficult.

Mike J: We acted upon strong advice not to attempt to presume what waterways would be of national importance to iwi.

5.4 Gail Tipa

I am aware that with such a 'high level' document - the flavour needs to be 'warm and fuzzy', my conviction is 'regional before national' but in reality, local politics can result in bad planning. The national role could be monitoring implementation of the RMA and statutory plans.

Mike J: During the review of the RMA a recommendation came through regarding the need for monitoring - and the Government is exploring a role the Ministry for the Environment to take a stronger role in monitoring the performance of councils. There is also Audit NZ that monitors performance of councils.

5.5 Edward Ellison

Is there an international aspect to the concept of waters of national importance?

Mike J: we are focussing upon work done at a national level, and we want to test those approaches first.

5. 6 Edward Ellison

One of the key things to encompass indigenous issues would be to give effect to the mauri of waterways. This concept/value is integral and should be promoted as such as a result of this consultation process.

5.7 David Parker (MP)

I am a bit suspicious of the concept of national importance, water quality will be deemed to be important is some areas, and not in others, and some areas might be left out. All waterways are important and need to be of a high quality. The waterway most important to me is the one closest to me. The concept of nationally important waterways is a very limited concept.

On the issue of 'first in first served' - this has become irrelevant because there is nothing left to serve, let's not get embroiled in this debate because there is no water left.

5.8 Edward Ellison

There are difficulties with the first in first served process - one difficulty is that everything has an incremental impact. First in first served reinforces inadequacy. It is difficult to address issues with individual consents without being able to step back and address the whole catchment.

Mike J: there seems to be a gold rush on water permits - people trying to get into the queue. There are also some difficulties with clauses in old legislation (eg mining acts).

5.9 Gail Tipa

The Council's mentality is to grant consents without guaranteeing that the water will be there.

Mike J: councils have to be mindful of new privileges being issued if they will impact on existing privileges

5.10 Gail Tipa

Environmental bottom lines become ecological bottom lines which is usually a fish survey. Can we introduce and start talking about community bottom lines - what is acceptable to the community? This links to allocation issues.

In the area of 'providing more tools' - cultural should be in all of those boxes.

Mike J: understands that in this area of the country, there are few bottom lines with respect to minimum water flows.

5.11 Gail Tipa

There are default mechanisms for minimum river flows that implies that all rivers have same standards, and they do not.

I notice that you said you are leaving urban out of this - this should not be the case.

Our Rūnanga focuses on irrigation. Irrigation restrictions will come on, but there will be no restrictions on hoses in Dunedin city, so rose gardens will become more important than farmers' livelihoods.

Mike J: this is really a scale issue. There needs to be more education around efficient use and conservation.

5.12 Edward Ellison

If people were required to put in water tanks, they would be so much more aware of their use.

5.13 Raewyn Harris

Raewyn agrees with the usefulness of tanks, but notes the lack of common sense regarding the lack of conservation and recycling of stormwater.

5.14 David Parker

I don't agree that councils don't have the tools. They have the tools, but they don't use them. Some of them don't enforce their own plans. All the tools in the world are useless if you don't use them. Funding of regional councils is adequate, they have a funding base, they can always strike more rates. Otago's water quality is declining tragically, but it is one of the richest councils in the country - money is not the problem.

5.15 Edward Ellison

They put it into Carisbrook rather than the environment.

5.16 Gail Tipa

Council have allocated when the streams and rivers are dewatered - they don't actually know what is going on

5.17 David Parker

Concerns about tradability of water rights - they may lead to sensible decisions but could entrench bad practice because you create a property right which makes it more difficult for the community to change the bottom lines. The Upper Waitaki is already fully allocated so none of local community can get allocation. If tradable rights are introduced - would they always be faced with Meridian's rights unless they are able to buy from them.

5.18 Edward Ellison

Cross mixing is an issue - it links to mauri, but it can be a tool.

Mike J: acknowledges this is an issue. Some iwi have been prepared to compromise and others have not. Many pakeha find this difficult to understand. This issue came up in Wanganui, and the Tribunal recognised this when limiting Genesis' consent until these issues worked through with iwi.

5.19 Edward Ellison

Councils have not been giving effect to sections 6,7,8 of the RMA.

Some of our settlement processes have been about improving the performance of councils.

5.20 David Parker

Global warming - there is debate over whether the Kyoto protocol will make a difference, but there is not much doubt that there is global warming occurring and our short run rivers are drying out, and this will put pressure on our long run rivers for future irrigation.

Questions about mixing; where the water is being used in a catchment are taken and transported for irrigation - is this a problem as opposed to a river running into another river? This is an important distinction to capture.

5.21 Edward Ellison

Where water has been cleansed on land there may be no issue, it is where it goes directly from one water body into another that is the major issue.

Note: District Council staff left at 12.22pm.

5.22 Raewyn Harris

Rangitata was completely dry and there was talk about bringing water from Rakaia to Rangitata.

5.23 Edward Ellison

These are things that we need to discuss to raise awareness.

5.24 Gail Tipa

There is some natural cross mixing when rainfall in one catchment mixes in with another watercourse due to aquifers.

5.25 Hine Forsyth

However, in this example, this has been cleaned by the land.

Mike J: The Rangitata Diversion race involves direct mixing. But with some of the newer proposals for water storage - if design matches natural processes, can this address mixing issues?

5.26 Hine Forsyth

Can this island sustain this amount of changing the use of the land?

Mike J: we have some win/win situations, such as reducing the nitrate in grasses and the Fonterra Clean Streams accord. We aim to get economic performance from farmers but not at the expense of the environment.

5.27 David Parker

There is a poor level of understanding of what landowners have the right to do. And the lobby groups are strong. Some of what people do is absolutely wrong. It is not a problem with the legislation eg No right to non-specific point discharge beyond boundary.

5.28 Hine Forsyth

We had a unique piece of land, and we have changed the nature of the land by putting animals on it - plants have not been able to adapt quickly enough, nor have the water ways. Has this been signalled to people?

Mike J: some work has been done on biodiversity that looks at some of these issues.

5.29 Hoani Langsbury

In terms of commercial activity - shouldn't the responsibility be on the commercial industry/polluter to improve water quality themselves. Their argument is that water is already at a poor quality, and why should they be responsible for actions upstream?

Mike J: there are reasonably good tools in the Resource Management Act already, one problem arises with historic discharges.

5.30 Edward Ellison

Extra study is needed to find models for efficiency that address quadruple bottom lines.

5.31 David Parker

The term 'efficiency' is far too narrow. With more expensive forms of irrigation there are higher energy costs, and to be viable, the farmer has to get greater returns, which in turn requires higher numbers of stock etc. The consequences are negative for water bodies.

The issue of minimum flows - set by the regional council - is a partly political issue - which might get worse with transferable rights. 

5.32 Edward Ellison

On the issue of transferable rights - the question that will arise is whether or not a formal property right is being developed?  

5.33 Mike Jebson

  • These could be based upon existing permits or equity issues
  • Currently there are no mechanisms for applications for water permits for water to stay in the river (eg rafters)
  • The issue of resource rentals was discussed at Invercargill this might be a way of recognising the value of water instead of tradable rights.

5.34 Edward Ellison

A strong regime for managing water is preferred. I am more interested in accuracy in terms of allocation - and the efficient use of water. Also supports more work being done on the concept of 'polluter pays'.

5.35 Hine Forsyth

This concept of polluter pays should be in tandem with a prohibition against pollution;

5.36 Mike Jebson

This will only work if the levy is strong enough to influence behaviour. The other system being explored in Taupo is the targeted reduction of human managed nitrogen going in to the lake - ie capping how much nutrient they are prepared to accept in the lake, along with taking some of the land out of agricultural production over time.

Hine: are they looking at what the farmer can afford?

Mike: water quality is still quite good and they want to maintain that quality. Taking action now for the future - collaborative programme with Tūwharetoa, regional council and central government

5.37 David Parker

That is great for Taupo - but it should not be used as a model for the rest of the country, it seems to accept that farmers have a right to discharge nutrients at certain levels. Also, the taxpayers from across the country are subsidising the clean up in Taupo ($26m) - to apply this model to the rest of the country would cost billions of dollars.

5.38 Haines Ellison

Haines agrees that there are issues regarding allocation. Councils are allocating water without actually guaranteeing that there is or will be water there in future.

5.39 Lorraine Nelson

Information has been sought about what has been taken from certain sources, and the council has been unable to provide that information. Kai Tahu ki Otakou (KTKO) would like this information for its own database.

5.40 Mike Jebson

Mike referred to the positive experiences shared at Invercargill in terms of relationship between iwi and local authorities. What is the relationship like in this area?

5.41 Gail Tipa

The CEO has directed staff of Regional Council not to meet with Gail. What Gail is seeking is for her Rūnanga to have a role in the monitoring of resource consents.

5.42 Lorraine Nelson

Otago Regional Council relationship is getting better with KTKO.

Quality and quantity issues are very critical in this area.

5.43 Edward Ellison

There are plans to look at enhancing relationship between council and iwi, and for ways in which Iwi can provide advice on the review of water plans. Ngāi Tahu has asked to be involved in monitoring.

During discussion on this issue, it was noted from the floor that Ngāi Tahu has not been involved in monitoring or implementation of the plans to date.

5.44 Gail Tipa

Ngāi Tahu looks forward to a better relationship with the CEO.

5.45 David Parker

David referred to the language in the presentation there is 'Not enough water to meet everyone's needs". David thinks there is enough, but not enough to meet everyone's desires. There should be caution with the language here. There are hierarchies of different needs.

Pilot programmes are a good way of experimenting with things that work, all regional councils should have to have pilot programmes in their own areas to fix obvious problems eg estuary here. The Taeiri is another. It is incredible that you cannot swim in large parts of the third biggest river in Otago (Taieri).

5.46 Edward Ellison

Iwi Management plans - always strongly supported these plans. This has been reviewed and will be coming out in March. We would like our Iwi plans to be reflected in other statutory plans. We hope our efforts will bear fruit.

5.47 Gail Tipa

Statutory plans must be part of a planning cycle. But they are not. There is no cycle that the community can really take part in. There must be an iterative planning cycle.

Gail likes the mechanism whereby Audit NZ can go in an audit performance.

5.48 John Ellison 

Does not support grading waterways - Tīpuna viewed that all creeks, streams, rivers are arteries of Papatūānuku. In human terms, the vein in your toe is as important as the ones in your heart. Similarly, grading of waterways is exclusive rather than inclusive. All water is connected.

National Policy statement could be a stepping stone to regional policy statements. He is unsure about these on the basis that guidelines that might work in the Waikato, may not work here.

Mauri - perhaps our thinking needs to change to think about the spiritual side first and the physical side will look after itself.

5.49 Hoani Langsbury 

In terms of the discussion regarding tank supply - in Hoani's own experience, it is not a large shift for urban areas to become far more efficient in their use of the water.  

6. Summary and conclusion

6.1 David Parker

Everyone understands that there are big issues facing us which are not easy to fix.

One thought to emphasise - increase of nitrate application gets 50% worse every two years. If we are going to rely upon national policy statements, new laws etc we are going to miss the boat.

We already have a regional plan, and existing laws need to be applied.

6.2 Mike Jebson

Has heard:

  • Support for some tools like national policy statements, but recognises that they should not be one size fits all - they would be tools for guidance and direction
  • About the political pressures in relation to water management - and that there is a role for central government to be involved.
  • Issues around mauri - and the mixing of waters
  • The call for community bottom lines
  • That this is both a rural and an urban issue
  • That water ways are interconnected - they are the veins of Papatūānuku
  • That Ngāi Tahu has been able to get iwi management plans up and running
  • That water should not be graded.

6.3 George Ria

The Resource Management Act and the Local Government Act have the mechanisms that require that iwi must be involved.

George explained the interaction with the sustainable development framework and how we need to look through more than the economic section.

6.4 Edward Ellison

This has been a productive hui. One key thing the RMA has achieved has been an awareness not to discharge human effluent into our waterways.

It has been pleasing to see David Parker, MP and his contribution is valued.

It was good to see district council represented at this hui as well.

 

Closing Karakia 1.32pm

Last updated: 25 November 2008