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Fresh water Programme of action Consultation
Christchurch hui
8 February 2005 , 11am
1. Karakia/ Mihimihi (HenareRakihia Tau)
2. Introductions
Mike Jebson, Rebecca Martel, George Ria (Ministry of Agriculture & Forestry); Suzanne Doig (Te Puni Kōkiri); Riki Ellison, Livia Hollins (Ministry for the Environment); Richard Hawke (Ministry of Economic Development); Willie and Linda Te Aho (Facilitator and minute secretary - Indigenous Corporate Solutions Limited).
3. Introductions of those in attendance
During introductions the following points were made:
3.1 Kelly Davis
Water is a taonga.
3.2 Iaean Cranwell
Tuna is very important to Wairewa but the river is currently affected by algal bloom. The lake levels are low. The lake sustains us. We must look after it.
3.3 Henare Rakihia (Rik) Tau
Henare has hunted on land, in water and the sea, as has his father and his father before - for generations. He descends from a group of 'dignified objectors' to those who have not cared enough for Te Marae o Tāne and Te Marae o Tangaroa (the domains of Tāne and Tangaroa). He wants to see fruits of this mahi, walking the talk, rather than just giving us paper.
4. Presentation (Mike Jebson)
4.1 Background
- Explanation of which freshwater bodies are being focused upon in this programme of action,
- Mike gave a background of his own experience of declining water quality in the streams he enjoyed during his own upbringing
- The importance of freshwater
- Water Programme of Action - How we can manage our water programme better.
- Have we got the problems right?
- We have some preliminary ideas for solutions and this consultation round is to gain views about these ideas - we are here to listen to your views
- Explanation of 'stakeholder groups' who were consulted to bounce very early ideas around with eg Māori Reference Group (MRG)
4.2 A question was raised about the input of Māori Reference Group in selecting waterways national importance.
Response - the sage advice of the Māori Reference Group was not to pre-empt discussion but to attend hui and seek feedback from each region.
4.3 Kelly Davis
Kelly raised concerns about the issues identified for discussion they seem to be heavily focussed on economic issues. He is here to discuss environmental impacts.
Response - in the context of the sustainable development framework, all issues are covered.
4.4 Henare (Rik) Tau - water quantity is a primary issue, you cannot allocate what is not there.
4.5 The major issues covered in the Water Programme of Action
- Allocation - taking of water
- Wasteful use of water - we need to recognise the value of water
- Water quality - declining
- Nationally important water bodies
4.6 Possible Solutions - Ideas for a new approach?
Note: These are early ideas and this is proper consultation in that we really need to hear some feedback on these ideas and any other ideas.
- (a) Providing National Direction
- Some ideas are to make use of RMA provisions for national policy statements and national environmental standards (currently there are none); Government targeting where it gets more directly involved in water management - identifying the 'nationally important' water bodies - eg Government has already become involved in issues around the Rotorua lakes and Taupo, and Waitaki. It is not proposed that the Government step in and take over water management.
- We would like to hear your views on this, where should the Government best put its efforts?
- Eg developing best practice information and sharing around, funding, pilot programmes
- Water management is complex, the community needs to understand that there are issues and therefore there is a need to raise awareness; we want to work on building relationships with Māori.
4.7 Suzanne Doig
One action identified in the discussion booklet is 'Enhancing Māori participation' this is really about building relationships. The booklet identifies two main areas, one is clarifying issues around Māori participation in Local Government - One possible solution is for Central Government to make it clearer what Local Government what processes they have to follow in terms of working with Māori; more widely, Central Govt is looking to provide guidance for better engagement on a much wider range of issues (ie not just about water).
Some of the big issues that have emerged from a number of hui so far are the poor relationships in a lot of areas with councils due to poor attitudes of some of the councils, and also capacity and capability issues for both iwi and for councils. What are the local issues? What are some possible ways of addressing these issues? Is it resourcing? Are there other ideas?
4.8. Kelly Davis
The knowledge we have as whanau within our rohe is in our heads. But, because it is not 'university knowledge' it doesn't count. We do not get listened to. There is no forum. Where there is a necessity for the government to get some input, they fly you to Wellington, you tell your story, you do not get listened to and nothing happens. We don't look at things in compartments. Water comes from the mountains to the sea. Whatever happens in the mountains, affects our lagoons, lakes, moana and the kai within.
We must look at the rights of those species that live in the water, we never take them in to account.
4.9. Evelyn Cook
If you are serious, then booklet should not be worded the way in which it was. There is nothing there about cultural and spiritual values. We come second to last and last.
There is nothing about Te oranga o Papatūānuku, o Tangaroa (the health of Papatūānuku and Tangaroa).
It is scary that the Ministry for the Environment is in bed with the Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry and Ministry of Economic Development. Surely the priority of the Ministry for the Environment is the environment.
Once, as always, the economic issues become the priority, the environment is compromised. We know what is happening to our fisheries. I am sick of waiting for scientists to agree. The discussion document is already back to front. Are you actually going to take notice of us this time and prioritise the fish, the birds, and the earth that needs that water, before the various industries, farming & electricity?
There is something wrong when the Ministry for the Environment writes documents like this.
4.10 Henare (Rik) Tau
- E tautoko ana i ngā kōrero. The Government must be involved. Our dreams mai rā anō (since time immemorial). We had water. Then we had no water. We had guarantees that water would stay there, but it hasn't stayed there. If there is no water, kua mate. Forget about allocation and quality. Toitū ngā taonga a Tangaroa, toitū ngā taonga a Tāne, Toitū te iwi.... If there is no water, we die.
- All we have ever known industry to do is dig a ditch and get rid of it (so that industry can use the land and control the water), it is like putting a habitual rapist in charge of a girls' school. The very people who got rid of it are now the ones who are talking about getting it back.
- Consultation must be with the landowners, that is us, iwi, we are the hunters the fishers - consult the right people.
Response (Mike Jebson) - allocation is not just about taking water, it is about ensuring that enough water stays in the fresh water systems.
4.11 Henare (Rik) Tau
Bureaucrats need to make certain that allocation and quantity are different things. Allocations are made to friends (eg farmers are on the council and they allocate to farmers)
4.12 John Wilkie
Mid-Canterbury is over allocated and I have seen in my short life span what has happened. Allocation must stay in the rivers and the moana.
There are no fish left. Breeding cycles don't take place. There is no whitebait anymore. Freshwater is not there to pull them in; it is being sprayed on the farms. My environment is being destroyed. I have pleaded and written submissions and no one takes any notice.
4.13 Yvette Couch-Lewis
I have visited water plants that deal with conservation of freshwater. Water here is different - it comes from springs and aquifers.
Our concern here with regional council is ensuring that there are monitoring systems in place. There are no standards in place from central government that would enable us to know how many bores are being put down. So that when a consent application comes through for a polo pitch, we know how much water is coming out of that area, we have no information in our own takiwa about water - the most important resource that we have.
For government agencies, we support the idea of national policies and standards, even if it is to shut down resource consents altogether so we can get a handle on what is allocated. I am not opposed to allocation, but we need to monitor.
4.14 Kerry Burke (Regional Authority)
Some of these statements are not statements that he agrees with. Information relating to all resource consents is available on the website. It won't tell you precisely how much water is being taken, but other details (what the water is for and how much was requested) are available.
We are looking at ways of metering consents, of charging, of finding means of transferring the rating of land to services involved. We reject the claim by John that this is the worst allocation system in the world - soviet countries are far worse.
We have more than 230 rivers with minimum flows. 30% of rainfall goes into ground. Of that, half of it is available and is allocated.
We have a Natural Resources Regional Plan, submissions have closed and are being collated and several chapters of that plan are underway. We have a number of systems to protect the environment - which, (as noted by Einstein) "is everything outside of me", so it does include the economy.
4.15 Kelly Davis
We agree that there are things in place but there is a lot of baggage, eg how were the low flows created? Nothing has been done about the low flows. There is a hangover from Catchment Boards that has not been dealt with.
Domestic Water use is not recorded. The issue of stock water has not been reviewed. The Waihau River is suffering.
We need floods to take some species (tuna) down river.
We need to sit down and talk as a community, with those who have an affinity and affection to the resource. It is about people's passions.
Mike - the over allocation of water is a real issue, and it is referred to in the booklet.
Kelly - we want every allocation to be monitored. It is common sense.
4.16 Caroline Edgecumbe
Supports what has been said about allocation issues, minimum flows and dealing with old baggage. The rivers are in such a poor state that allocation seems pointless. Environment Canterbury (ECan) has some good initiatives and we all learn as we go. But how much iwi input has gone into those programmes? Caroline would like to see national input, and sharing of information so that we don't have to continue to learn as we go.
MikeJ- response - best practice information sharing is one of the ideas contained in the booklet.
4.17 Henare(Rik) Tau
Much has been done since RMA 1990. Prior to that you could see destruction all over the place. New rating regime may be difficult politically. Central Government could assist that process in having sustainable policies relative to the region, because our issues are different here.
A problem arose when stop banks were built, so now shingle fills up the rivers. Shingle needs to be removed, as there is no water. These things can be remedied - too much damage has been done since Europeans arrived.
Mike - this is a difficult issue for Regional Councils to deal with.
4.18 Evelyn Cook
National directives would be good eg irrigation scheme on Hakatere River.
Open irrigations systems are still going in. If some can be piped, why can't it all be piped? There are more efficient systems, but Councils don't seem to be compelling new irrigators to use efficient (piped) systems. Why should cows be drinking from irrigation ditches? Why should people downstream be affected by the effluent from cows?
We are cynical about some of the arguments being raised. What we are arguing for are does not benefit us financially, we argue for the benefit of the veins of Papatūānuku. What are farmers and hydro companies driven by? They exploit what they consider to be a free resource. The RMA is too often used as an economic development act rather than an environmental protection act.
4.19 John Wilkie
I get on well with ECan, and there are a lot of good things happening. There is a problem with setting minimum flows. There are examples where minimum flows are set on the river after the biggest percentage taken. There is the concern that the minimum flows then become the norm. There is more than enough water that has been allocated for irrigation to irrigate the whole of the plains - but we are still getting more applications for consent.
[Break for lunch]
4.20. Mike continued with the presentation
- (c) Working together (continued)
Pilot programmes - there are some examples of good programmes happening and Government wants to explore other good programmes. - (d) Provide more tools
There are problems with the current 'first in first served process' through this current consultation process, the Government wants to explore other options eg comparing competing users; market mechanisms within a framework of rules and regulations.
4.21 Question from the floor
Property rights - don't farmers really believe that they have rights in perpetuity?
Mike
Research shows that most farmers act as if their rights will be renewed automatically, but most recognise that those rights are legally not in perpetuity.
4.22 Henare (Rik) Tau
This must be made very clear, because farmers talk about their expectations. They expect their resource consents to be continued.
Mike - Council can reduce water taken with no right of compensation.
4.23 Question
Will the RMA review impact on this issue?
Mike - If someone has had water for a long time, the RMA bill does provide the ability for that person's consent to be considered at the front of the queue, there is no right to expect water, but they get to the front of the queue.
4.24 Evelyn Cook
This regional authority looks at 35 years as a term unless there are good reasons why it shouldn't. Applicants don't have to justify their use. This is a very long time - a farmer's career. They take it for granted and form expectations based on that. So a habit is formed. Incremental increases have been the sneakiest damage. Very few people have a whole picture of what is going on in a catchment.
Evelyn suggests a new process for renewing all consents at the same time.
Mike - Certain things are rights eg water for fire fighting etc and permits are not necessary - and are not covered in this discussion document.
4.25 Question from the floor
Traditional reserves - shouldn't Māori who have traditional rights be automatically at the top of the queue. This also relates to lands that have been returned to Māori. We need to have the water rights to use the land as well. We should be a priority.
Mike - these are tricky issues and for Ministers rather than policy analysts. There are no preferential rights for Māori in this document.
4.24 Question from the floor
Māori have to position themselves for preferential treatment, and decision makers in this room should be considering this.
- (d) Provide more tools (continued)
Transfer of consents and permits - The project at Lake Taupo is an example of management of a whole catchment. The focus of this project is the water quality in Lake Taupo, which is declining as a legacy of past management. The beauty of the new approach proposed in the discussion document as opposed to a strict regulatory approach, gives more flexibility to farmers, but they pay for that flexibility.
(Willie Te Aho noted that the Lake Taupo project is driven by Tūwharetoa, by council and by central government so it is a collective and integrated approach.
4.25 Evelyn
Is there a paper on that, we should be able to see if that example applies to us?
4.26 Kate
The Taupo programme is driven by the quality of the lake - so it is 'sink based' - how do people feel about transfer discharge permits downstream where a river is involved?
4.27 Kelly Davis
I am opposed to mixing waters - it is bad enough that our rivers Awatapu and Waihau do not have enough water, but now there is water coming from elsewhere (Waitaki) with weed in that water. We need to be heard now, not in two years. We have always talked about preserving the mauri of the water.
Mike - recognise issues around mauri and mixing of waters.
4.28 Evelyn Cook
The ability to transfer water is almost like a property right - our fear is that someone who can afford the resource consent will over apply - eg Meridian, who assert that they own the river for hydro, and therefore everyone else has to satisfy them rather than the consent authority. What's to stop them gathering up 'spare' and then selling on?
Mike - more work and research needs to be done on this - it is possible that the design of the system can be limited to those who have defined uses for water to stop speculators. We want to test whether the idea has merit before we can test the design. The RMA already has current provisions to trade, but they are not used very much.
Suzanne: The RMA makes it easier for seasonal/temporary transfers.
5. Discussion
5.1 John Wilkie
There is unequal sharing of the resource. Tradeable water rights, those who already have the resource (farmers) will 'rule the roost'. They are driven by economics not the environment. There are real concerns about transfers.
5.2 Kate Sedgley
To add to what John has just said, the proposed amendments would make the situation worse; investment is one of the determinants for decision-making.
It will be a high factor for what is being considered - rather than efficiency of use and environmental priorities. Having better monitoring is needed.
Mike - proposals in bill are a default position, councils can develop a plan to alter this.
5.3 Paul Waaka
Action 10 'Enhancing Māori Participation'
Ngāi Tahu has been involved for a number of years and is very experienced in RMA issues. There is no mention of iwi management plans in the document. It is all about tino rangatiratanga and kaitiakitanga.
Suzanne - While they are not mentioned in the document, iwi management plans have been discussed. Suzanne acknowledges that Ngāi Tahu are leaders in this area.
5.4 Paul Waaka
One good way to upset Māori is to put them last or out in the corridor.
5.5 Kelly Davis
There are issues about land, which is riverbed, which is being developed.
All awa, wherever they are, are taonga of our people. I want to see, in terms of lifelong interests in awa, where we fit in terms of the Treaty and tino rangatiratanga. It is talked about, but it is never at the forefront of the documents.
I support what Paul said, we are the people that walk up and down these rivers. I have devoted my life to water; my children will have lifelong interests. The RMA has been one of the best things that have happened. Now it is under review.
The Whanganui case is a driver for the RMA review; the government is going to lessen the impact of that case.
Government must listen. We are not going to go away.
Questions put to the floor by the facilitator:
- How does an ideal relationship look?
- How does it relate to quality and allocation?
5.6 Kelly Davis
Pilot programmes - we have had to create local initiatives so that we have input. In Waihau, we have refused to consent to allocation. For the past five years or so, we have pushed for applicants (farmers etc) to come to our marae and listen to our point of view and gain understanding of what we are saying. Ki uta ki tai - from mountains to the sea - because we know the farmers, we can work with them. So we need to work from a community base and work together.
5.7 Paul Waaka
Paul reiterated that Ngāti Tahu have been working on these issues prior to the RMA. Since the RMA, Ngāi Tahu needs to kick on, and develop business plans to deal with RMA and work with regional authorities, and develop their own policies on water quality and push those through. The voice needs to come from the rūnaka. This consultation round and the submissions is just another process. This is a challenge and we need to take you (central government) on. This document is the cart before the horse.
The key issue is what rūnaka want and how they want to push it.
5.8 Henare (Rik) Tau
The problem here is an old European strategy "nibble, bite and swallow". What I am hearing is a strategy to develop a water right and a tradable property right. I am opposed to this.
We are the owners - the iwi - not corporate structures. We have guarantees of rights to water (and to foreshore and seabed) and these rights are vested in us by the Treaty of Waitangi, the Māori Land Court and legislation.
The important issue is to have a sustainable water supply - don't allow it to be traded off, don't let our rights be extinguished.
We have missed out on fisheries allocation, the same thing will happen in agricultural rights.
There are those that are setting themselves up to gain a commercial tradeable property rights. We own those rights.
Are you here to listen to us? Or are you here for another agenda - so that we end up once again with the shadow. Please know that if you don't intend to listen to us then we will come after you. Please get it right.
5.9 Evelyn Cook
We have all this korero and the women's point of view is not put. In our whakapapa, ka moe a Papatūānuku ki a Takaroa. Divorcing what happens here from the land and the rivers from what happens at sea is not on.
Papatūānuku is the mother of us all, birds, fish, plants and people. We are here today to fight for her and for all the things that ensure her wellbeing. So I am not saying that Māori interests be put first, but put Papa first and our interests will be protected.
Māori as individuals have economic interests, as property owners. That is not what I am here to talk about. I am not interested in those interests as long as they don't affect the environment - Papatūānuku.
Local authority some of their plans are far too permissive and we are shut out of the process. When is Central Government going to review their processes?
Some permitted activities, we are unable to challenge, are enshrined in their district plans. We, iwi, find it hard to make inroads unless someone else in the district wants the plans changed. We are not seen as significant players, we are almost invisible. We can only influence change if someone else in society wants change. Shouldn't there be some balance between what the community wants and what is good for everyone? More well resourced applicants have a better chance to effect change - they have more political weight.
National policy statements are therefore important for future generations.
Mike - the Ministry for the Environment is becoming involved in the area of local government and district plans is a proposal that is being developed currently.
5.10 Comment from the floor
In terms of Regional councils and structures - not necessarily ECan - but smaller, less well- resourced councils, we are victims of politicians who run the councils. His experience - is that it is hard for compliance managers to stick to the law if the policy of councillors does not lean towards that view. The gap between governance and management is very small.
There is no environmental management, the first slide that showed dirty water, no riparian management, that top down policy needs to come down from MfE.
Evelyn supports this, from her own experience.
5.11 Iaean Cranwell
In terms of the Peninsula - we have a different landscape from the plains. Lake Wairewa is a sink more like Taupo, and would like to see information become available.
Facilitator's Note: Sue Powell has been working directly on the Taupo example - we can collate some of that information and make it available to you directly.
Also, our streams don't run that long, with more tourism and subdivision, more emphasis now on water take and more impact on mahinga kai - where is that water going to come from?
5.12 John Wilkie
In terms of the RMA different departments and agencies are on three boats and going on different courses. Freshwater is also about species that live in it, not just quality and allocation. I have made submissions which have included statements based on the Treaty of Waitangi, which have been ignored. As tangata whenua, as a landholder I have a right to say what goes into water and what doesn't. There is a lack of understanding of what is meant by iwi/hapū/tangata whenua.
5.13 John Greer
John is interested in opinions regarding regulation versus education as a way of achieving change.
5.14 Henare (Rik) Tau
The Crown assumes that they are God to all things. There needs to be a relationship between central government and local authorities to ensure that the local authorities do the job - that job is to ensure the sustainability of the environment. The government has a history of delegating responsibilities then taking funding away.
5.15 Kim Wetini
Acknowledged that mana whenua had to travel 2-3 hours to travel to hui and amongst them is more than 100 years of knowledge. The Māori Land Court does not have the mechanism to get information out to landowners in Te Waipounamu, and so TPK have used their networks to get information out.
5.16 Kelly Davis
Ministry for Environment should have a consent monitoring system that monitors councils, and that would take completely away some of the political problems discussed today.
5.17 Kerry Burke (Regional Authority)
Responds to some of the points made:
- Piping of water and efficiency - their advice is that water is a public good, but once it enters a pipe, it becomes private property.
- Dairying
- badly managed dairy farms can cause difficulties, but efforts are being made with Fonterra for better farming practices.
- NZ's nitrate pollution levels are some of the lowest in the world.
- The worst pollution comes from horticulture.
- The amount allocated to dairy is 1/7th, so the bulk of allocation is not to dairy
- Rangitata diversion race - there is already some trading of water within their structure. RC want open stock races to be piped. But some are arguing that these races are now part of the environment. Main drain is now being determined as a river with wildlife in them, not as a drain.
- Kerry is part of Christchurch 2021 and they have "ki uta ki tai" written in their documents as well.
- Science is moving on in terms of nitrate levels.
- Water Rights - humans have rights to water and stock have rights as well.
- 35 years is commonly applied for - and if there is no evidence about impacts on sustainability, councils are more or less obliged to grant the consent. But if there is evidence or there is doubt, then applications have been declined.
- RC currently looking at charging for services with regard to water consents based on volume, quick way to reduce costs is to reduce volume sought.
- District Plans - if RM bill is passed, regional policy statements will be the property of whole region. So where district plans are seen to be weak, they will have to be in line with the regional plan.
- Local government Governance & management - agrees that there are pressures that can be put on staff. But these issues can be addressed through the audit office.
6. Summary and Conclusion
6.1 Mike Jebson
Acknowledged the contribution and wisdom of participation then summarised key points made:
- Papatūānuku must be cared for as a priority
- People want action, rather than more hui
- Good science is needed as well as measurement of what is happening
- Monitoring and enforcement
- Acknowledgement that there is a role for central government
- Ownership issues
- Clear call for iwi management plans and for Ngāi Tahu to do their own work on water
- Positive stories of some good work between Ngāti Tahu and local and regional authorities and some room for improvement
- Concerns about mighty dollar too powerful
- Concerns about waste and people are not valuing water and that something needs to be done about that.
6.2 George Ria
There is a difference between listening and understanding of our Māori world view.
Wai
Wai tapu Sacred
Wai rua Spiritual (blessed)
Wai tai
Wai ora Health, goodness (social)
Wai mate Sick, sluggish
Wai kino
Kei a koutou kē ngā kōrero e pā ana ki ngā ingoa o ngā wai. E rere kē, e rere mai.
(You know the stories that tell the meanings of the names of the waters that run through your rohe).
Monitoring and evaluation - Papatūānuku gives us indications - do we really need scientists to tell us that things are not right?
Anei ngā ture o te Māori (These are the laws of the Māori).
Somewhere within this lies sustainable development. Turning back to the sustainable development framework - we are paying socially and culturally, we have all been sucked into economic imperatives. Now we need to try to restore balance.
My job is to awhi (assist) my colleagues and to try and feed you back something that is valued and that is a hard job.
George shared a story from his own rohe in Gisborne about taking a kākahu from Papatūānuku, they toyed with her (by felling trees and plants), and suffered a major land slip as a result.
Closing kōrero: Henare (Rik) Tau
We can be so creative and yet so destructive, then we need to repair things. Government has a responsibility to provide leadership. Don't pass the buck. The Crown is responsible for the Treaty. We find out that someone else owns things as soon as it has a value. Please ensure that policies have an outcome, otherwise, don't come back.
In the event of water permits being considered and interpreted as tradable water property rights then the Crown needs to identify proven property rights of Māori to water and their resources to ensure judicial compliance and the obligations of the Crown to the Treaty of Waitangi as a matter of national importance. [Many of the tangata whenua in attendance acknowledged this statement].
3.15pm Closing karakia - Henare (Rik) Tau
Last updated: 25 November 2008
