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Auckland hui

North Harbour Stadium, 16 February 2005, 10am

1. Karakia /Mihimihi (Te Hemara Pita Pou, Takutai Moana Wikiriwhi).

2. Introductions

Paul Reynolds, Rebecca Martel, George Ria (Ministry of Agriculture & Forestry); Suzanne Doig (Te Puni Kōkiri); Livia Hollins (Ministry for the Environment); Willie and Linda Te Aho (Facilitator and minute secretary - Indigenous Corporate Solutions Limited).

3. Introductions of those in attendance

During introductions the following points were made:

  • 3.1 William Kapea (Ngāti Whātua) - Given that is a Ministry for the Environment Paper, why is there only one person from Ministry for the Environment (MfE) here?
  • 3.2 Pauline Kingi (Tumuaki TPK Tamaki) - in the 1970s Pauline recommended the need for more dam facilities as it was known that Tamaki experiences peaks and troughs in terms of water and a trough was predicted - but with devolution etc occurring in Local Government, the recommendations were not followed. In 1994 Tamaki suffered a drought, but rather than the dam option, the alternative was a pipeline which has now been built - many iwi did not support the pipeline as an option for cultural reasons. The issue now is how to develop various interests, and the impact on iwi interests. Pauline recommends more water conservation - if water is a taonga, it should be valued - a water conservation education programme was disseminated in all schools in the region and was successful.
  • 3.3 Willie Te Aho explained the presentation process and how people are able to check the draft minutes and make changes if they wish, or make separate submissions by the closing date of 18 March.
  • 3.4 Paul Reynolds responded to the question regarding the lack of representation from MfE by explaining the 'all of government' joint approach between the two lead ministries, MAF and MfE, and both have a strong commitment to this process.

4. Presentation (Paul Reynolds)

4.1 Background

  • Paul acknowledges the importance of freshwater, and the importance of consultation with Māori
  • This programme looks at water from the mountains to the sea in a holistic way and its purpose is to improve water management
  • Explanation of which freshwater bodies are being focused upon in this programme of action, some things are critical but not included in the programme (eg estuaries, urban water supply) but notes that these issues are linked,
  • There are many dimensions to this work - social, cultural, economic
  • Water is important to all of us - we drink it, we eat from it, we make money from it, we generate energy from it, is supports mahinga kai, we swim in it, some of us gain spiritual enrichment from it. Therefore water must be managed wisely so that all our needs can be met.
  • We are here today to engage in a conversation which is very much at the beginning of the process, it has been going for a little over a year.
  • This is not a consultation where officials are coming to get rubber stamps. We are here to seek and capture input.
  • Explanation of two reference groups - one was made up of about 25 'stakeholder groups' (eg. Federated Farmers, Fish and Game, Federation of Māori Authorities, Energy Companies) and the other was a Māori Reference Group (MRG) which was not representative, but was there to provide some initial advice: Heitia Hiha, Paul Morgan, Jane West, Gail Tipa, Waaka Vercoe.

4.2 The Water Programme of Action looks at three major issues

  • Allocation
    • how we share it around, it is about what we use (irrigation, diversion, electricity generation) and also what should stay
    • There is not enough water to meet everyone's needs and demand is going to continue to grow. So, the potential for conflict can only increase
    • Wasteful use and inefficient use of water
  • Water quality
    • We know that quality is declining - this is a growing problem and affects some of our iconic waterways
    • We want to be able to drink it, and to swim in it
    • Some lakes are more sensitive than others, and there is an intensification in farming which has caused degradation
    • the mauri of our rivers is under attack
  • Nationally important water bodies - water bodies that are nationally significant for some reason. Eg 'iconic' lakes such as Taupo, Rotorua, Rotoiti

4.3 Other issues

  • The role of Central Government - when should it be involved, and how should it be involved, the Government's approach has tended to be reactive rather than proactive - though there is some good work being done in Taupo- and there needs to be some prioritisation for Central Government involvement.
  • It is critical that good work being done locally is built upon.

4.4 Possible Solutions - Ideas for a new approach? (Rebecca Martel)

(a) Providing National Direction

Some ideas are to make use of RMA provisions for national policy statements and national environmental standards (currently there are none); Government targeting where it gets more directly involved in water management - eg identifying the 'nationally important' water bodies

(b) Central Government could become more involved

Eg in making submissions on plans, developing best practice information and sharing that information out into communities, funding, pilot programmes - such as Lake Taupo - the collaborative project to cut down nitrogen levels in the lake

(c) Working together

Water management is complex, the community needs to understand that there are issues and therefore there is a need to raise awareness of the water quality problems and that water is a scarce resource; we want to work on building relationships with Māori, and improving the appreciation of Māori cultural values in the planning and policy process.

Suzanne Doig - One action identified in the discussion booklet is 'Enhancing Māori participation' this is really about building relationships. The booklet identifies two main areas, one is clarifying issues around Māori participation in Local Government - One possible solution is for Central Government to make it clearer to Local Government as to the processes they have to follow in terms of working with Māori; more widely, Central Govt is looking to provide guidance for better engagement on a much wider range of issues (ie not just about water).

Some of the big issues that have emerged from the RMA review and hui like these is the poor relationships in a lot of areas with councils due to poor attitudes of some of the councils, and also capacity and capability issues for iwi to engage, and for councils. What are the local issues? What are some possible ways of addressing these issues - training? resourcing? Are there other ideas?

4.5 Lee Cherie-King

There is no legal obligation in RMA to consult with Māori, and the proposed RMA amendments will reduce this even further. The submissions closed on RMA amendments yesterday.

As Māori, we work on one act, and now there is work for another act, nothing is synchronised. We are working on building relationships.

Has the Ministry put in a submission? There is too much responsibility put on TPK.

Questions - is there a provision for late submissions on the RMA amendment bill?

Suzanne - We cannot say yes or no because it is now in the hands of the parliamentary select committee, not officials.

Paul - explained the select committee process and how there is still the opportunity to make submissions at that stage.

Lee CherieKing- our experience with the select committee on the Foreshore and Seabed so many submissions but the legislation went through, we feel that what is the point of the consultation process?

4.6 Jane West

Māori are landowners, and those that regulate are the local authorities, therefore you come to us as landowners and owners of development - you must come to us with a different mindset, and we will be part of the decision-making. Māori need to be directly involved to mature and move from consultation and participation to actual governance, management, regulatory and compliance power.

4.7 Pauline Kingi

This is an important point - Māori as landowners and stakeholder interests, and also kaitiakitanga, you might like to reference some work done with the Parliamentary commissioner on the RMA.

Presentation continued

(d) Provide more tools

  • Current first in first served might not be appropriate anymore. The discussion booklet sets out some ideas around auctioning and tendering of water.
  • Transfer of consents and discharge permits
  • Local Government prepares plans - local authorities could be required to prepare a plan concerning water issues.

4.8 Pauline Kingi

There are already examples where there is no water left in some South Island places - it has been permitted, permitted, permitted and there is nothing left - water quality is not an issue when there is no water left. This is a worst case scenario now. There are a whole lot of things that need to happen to include Māori in this whole debate (eg Ngāi Tahu are out of that loop) how can this be addressed?

4.9 Jane West

There has been an assumption that the water will keep coming. The issue of over allocation should not be tolerated at all. This relates to land without water.

5. Discussion

5.1 William Kapea

This whole paper, the danger is similar to that of fish quota. We have Māori involved in fishing and we know fish stocks are declining and people are dependent. We are caught up in the system by being a part of it but we are not part of the system in the management of the stocks, we can't exercise rāhui.

There is a concern that water is going the same way.

We are being dragged into the same thing, we are told to be part of the process, but we won't have a say in the management.

Soon our rivers will be gone. This 'consultation process' - as good as it sounds, is not consultation - it is a way to gear things up to deal with the issues that we put forward. Ask for other perspectives.

There is no discussion on water standards. Two documents have been produced on 'guidelines' but what is needed is standards (two guidelines were shown to the hui).

We need national standards so that local and regional councils can apply those standards consistently. For us, water comes from puna - not the maunga. We want to restore mauri in those places.

Here in the North Shore, not one of our water-courses meets health standards for bathing.

5.2 Jane West

Totally agrees with Bill (Kapea), we are not involved in the regulation and we need to be. We are not there in monitoring and compliance, and we need to be there as kaitiaki and as treaty partners. This includes having our Māori commissioners on an equal status as other commissioners on these decisio- making boards - and not just one representative.

When Local Government take water, we need to be right there to ensure compliance according to national standards and national policy. The local government bodies who have the delegated power allow these things to happen come to us at the last minute for our approval. We as tangata whenua should be delegated power under LAW (RMA s33/34) to be the decision maker and regulator.

No public health water standards have been followed through in legislation.

5.3 Pamera Warner

We have been talking about this for years, are there no national standards available? (Answer - no). We should start with that. This is a serious issue.

In Kakanui, our spring that has dried up as a result of forestry by Rodney Council. Springs at Otakanini Tōpu have also dried up.

There are farm activities and forestry happening all along our rivers that affect our water.

What I am hearing from my people today is the sound of disempowerment. We are consulted at the tail end.

We need to be treated equally as those making decisions and most times we are not. I am tired about people consulting tangata whenua, officials running up and down the country, local bodies, and government departments and we are hitting our heads against brick walls. Our people are capable of being in the highest positions.

National standards - reference to Ngāwhā prison (built on the spring) and the draining of wetlands. We need to have standards that stop this from happening - get our priorities right.

5.4 Antoine Coffin (ARC)

It is likely that the RC will be passed the buck to sort out some of the local issues. He supports the establishment of national water quality standards. Years ago we studies standards in North America which were very high. Also support the idea of a national policy statement. Water is only secondary in importance to people.

More work needs to be done to emphasise the importance of water - to remind people of the value of water, rather than looking straight at allocation measures.

Fully supports the working together idea. Whole of government approach would work on catchments (eg Mahurangi Catchment - heavy sediment).

RMA- there are some issues around the amendment bill - there is no duty to consult in resource consents. There is a concern that despite provisions in Part II matters (relating to Māori) in terms of implementation - no duty to consult therefore it will probably not occur.

Building relationships and capacity - this does not often occur. You could take a lead on looking at good models both in NZ and internationally on best practice for indigenous people being involved in water issues. We have to move from just saying we have got to do it, to actually going though with some models.

Q: Has there been any work on the cost of water?

No comprehensive study.

5.5 Jane West

If you haven't got water, then you can't have agriculture etc. There is a paper on climate change, and you need to reference that work and work together (both steering committees). Paul and I are on both Māori issues working parties (and reference group). This is because you can't have climate change issues without water.

The emphasis of this programme is rural, but there are urban issues which are critical because of the storm water issues and the impacts on our natural water ways. The natural waterways are deemed 'soft assets' owned by the local body. Water is water - rural, urban, puna, awa, moana - Wai Māori, Waitai.

5.6 Pauline Kingi

Observed that this document acknowledges the importance of water as a taonga to Māori but then it talks about reconciling that with economic issues.

Māori (particularly in the context of the RMA) shouldn't be seen as anti-development, or as problematic but we are kaitiaki - to protect the whenua, the awa and sacred sites and this is affirmed in Te Tiriti o Waitangi. As we move forward, we must be in partnership. Any water programme of action must see water as a taonga in the context of the Treaty and this benefits all of us, not just Māori. The RMA seemed to set us apart as world leaders in this area, let's not let that go. Don't just consult with us; allow us to participate. Don't let Māori be relegated to a second tier level of consultation when Māori are the Treaty partner.

5.7 Pamera Warner

We are talking from our background, our history, our culture. We won't just drop all that because of some government law. There is strong resistance to us when we say we are coming from a cultural identity. 

5.8 William Kapea

On page 7 of the discussion document - the MRG is named. Then it lists the interests represented in the stakeholder reference group.

Are Māori not a stakeholder? The stakeholders are a powerful lobby group. My heart go out to the members of the MRG, they are a reference group not a stakeholder group.

William cites the introduction by the Minister in the document which refers to how "different management regimes... have protected waterways, rivers, lakes and aquifers" This is incorrect. Many Māori have protested against what has gone into our water bodies over time.

There are flaws in the wording of the document:

  • The words "provide opportunities for everyone"
  • And the "weighting.... fairly used... and where necessary, preserved". Preservation should come first before fair use. This document has an economic focus rather than a focus on restoring and protecting.
  • The document is insensitive. The language in the document makes it look like it is 'Māori versus the stakeholders'. There are only vague references to Māori values eg waterways were used by iwi as boundaries.

It is all very well to talk about building better relationships but the ones there today are failing us.

5.9 Jane West

There are many things that we (MRG) have said during our meetings that are not in the document, and a later paper that I was involved in writing on Māori values is not reflected in the discussion document. It should have been included. If you really want to walk the talk: then put our korero from today and the past on Māori values back into these documents or the subsequent policies that are developed.

We have been doing this mahi for generations, and we say and hear the same thing - this is not new, and will continue past our lifetimes.

There are some seeds in the programme that need to be nurtured for our mokopuna.

We who have been doing the work need to be in Wellington talking, not leaving it up to politicians. We need to be resourced to participate, to engage effectively.

5.10 Te Marino Lenihan

Question 1: You tell us that forecast demands are increasing, where is the strategy for greater education on conservation, restoration and regenerating capacity? There needs to be more balance between consumption and conservation.

Question 2: on the issue of relationships with Māori -legally, part 2 of the RMA requires these relationships s6(e) - but more than that, Māori have hundreds of years experience as kaitiaki, as mana whenua protecting and managing land, waterways and so on. This needs to be recognised.

We need to be at governance level, an example could be regional tangata whenua water boards - which could sit alongside councils and make decisions at that level

We need to be at management level - how can you help develop iwi management plans?

We need to be at regulatory/compliance level - perhaps we could establish something similar to honorary fisheries officers.

5.11 Pauline Kingi

Our people are capable of conservation. We developed a conservation kit 'Taniwharau' in consultation with Tainui for the Tamaki region during the water crisis. Watercare supported this. Education and awareness is crucial. We are running out of water. This is very serious.

5.12 Antoine Coffin

Has there been any work done on technical developments? Eg salination, cleaning, recycling

Answer: those issues are outside the scope of this programme

There was widespread support amongst those in attendance for the idea of recycling and consideration of conservation strategies.

Jane - talked about the contradiction in acts regarding conservation techniques (eg using grey water, alternative technologies for waster water) - there needs to be more consistency/synergy.

5.13 Lee Cherie King

Refers to Page 5 "A way forward - 13 actions"

Māori should be up there as action number one - because we are talking about our values as tangata whenua, we have not been involved at governance level and therefore our values have not been adopted.

There is no reference to the Treaty, the Crown should enable Māori values to captured and reflected.

RMA review - planning commissioners will have more involvement in process - in Manukau - there is only one - she doesn't stand a chance - we need equity in the representation of these commissioners.

Enhance Māori participation - this is not strong enough.

Education of elected members on council - The reality is that they are not educated on Māori issues. There needs to be improvement in their capacity.

5.14 Jane West

From discussions of Ngāti Whātua - Hapū/Iwi planning documents - are a way of putting our Māori benchmarks on how we will do things in our rohe. This gives us an onus was well.

There are currently two funds administered by Mfe and MAF - the Sustainable Management Fund and the Sustainable Farming Fund. In the future, when hapu, iwi make applications, we should not have to fight with Crown Research Institutes (CRIs) such as Landcare or Hort research, or Government departments for the same funds. As a solution, money should be put aside solely for Māori. Within this funding, some could be set aside solely for water. This will ensure that Māori planning documents are bite size and achievable.

Currently we are competing with CRIs and Government departments. In the political environment, all that funding disappeared.

We, Te Rūnanga o Ngāti Whātua applied for funding for SMF and got it (and had done the first of twelve capacity milestones), but the contract was suspended due to a political about turn in policies. So we do not have an iwi management plan and we have to reapply again with everyone else for funding.

Support for Iwi includes resourcing and access to technology.

5.15 Pauline Kingi

Seeks clarification on the involvement of FOMA in the process how does it link into the interests of mana whenua in the Tamaki rohe? It is important to hear the voice of the people of the land. They have a number of employment initiatives etc and need to be involved. Māori population in 2005 28% - this is a substantial interest in Tamaki rohe.

Response: Paul Morgan sits on the MRG. FOMA is represented on the stakeholder group. Many land blocks have not been engaged by FOMA in this process.

5.16 Kristy Hill

Kristy gave some background to the Otakanini Topu - economic development. TPK is assisting them to create their own economic and business development for themselves.

5.17 William Kapea

Referred to Page 13 Water conservation orders:

How many successful applications are being made by Māori? What is the likelihood of success given the stakeholders' interests in water allocation?

Answer: unknown

William: under the RMA weighting is against Māori. Farmers would oppose conservation orders because they conflict with their economic use and desires.

If an awa is a taonga to a hapū, how does that weigh against someone who wants to discharge into that awa or take from the awa? How will this be balanced in your policies that you develop?

Answer: it is not - that is what we are seeking from this consultation.

William: National standards should adopt our values and should clearly outline the weightings to be given to our values.

5.18 Jane West

This programme would need to talk to Māori as landowners and tangata whenua - knowing about Te Ture Whenua Māori Act and Māori Trustee constructs. The public need to be made aware that we are more than protestors. We are landowners with economic development aspirations.

5.19 William Kapea

Referred to Action 3 - bottom lines - there is no mention of historical information and what local people learn over time (eg seasonal issues and signs of stress on the environment). Too much emphasis is placed on scientific information. Sometimes courts have taken historical evidence as important. It is important that such information is captured in the programme and given the respect it deserves.

Bill referred to plans to develop a dam on the Hotio River - the ARC was interested in studying the river as there was a possibility of income from water charges. But as soon as the water charge issue disappeared, the ARC was not interested in doing the study. We want the study done to address our issues - but it was no longer of economic importance to the ARC. So there is no study on this important awa.

5.20 Te Marino Lenihan

Any regime needs to take into account values.

5.21 Jane West

Urban issues must be integrated into this programme - this is not just a rural issue - that is too narrow a focus, they are all interlinked, and this programme needs to be extended. Metropolitan city limits are extending all the time, into areas where our marae are.

Stormwater infrastructure impacts on our natural waterways, roading impacts on our waterways. Ngāti Whātua has 9 district councils and 2 regional councils - we are asking for consistency on legislative administration.

There is an issue around the political agenda and the legislative programme before the election. This consultation on freshwater started one week before Waitangi Day and when Māori are still reeling from the Foreshore and Seabed issue. Many Māori have not quite picked it up, and this is coming through at some of the hui. Can you assure us that this take will remain an initial stage, and not rocket into policy draft before elections for the sake of expediency? The foreshore issues happened like that. Although I congratulate you on your attempt to take this issue around, the only way that this will work is when Māori are decision makers.

Paul: there is no expectation for officials involved that things will happen before the election, but ultimately it is for Ministers to decide. There is no prescribed end point. We are closer to the beginning than the middle and the end.

Jane: We have learned from our experience on the Foreshore, and there are similarities here. Hopefully there will be better relationships and a better outcome from this process.

Suzanne: There have been no more policy documents written beyond the work that went into this discussion document.

5.22 Te Marino

In te reo Māori, the 'a' and 'o' categories indicate different values for particular things - for water it is an 'o' category - indicating the importance of water to Māori. Te Marino presented a gift of a t-shirt to Paul screen printed with the words: "Kia ora ai te wai" (that the water lives on). Ultimately we are interested in the health and benefit of our water.

5.23 Lee Cherie King

Page 8 - Relationship between Crown-Māori needs to be prioritised over the other material in the diagram- it is another level.

5.24 Jane West

In the original drafts, the treaty relationship was shown in a way that showed its priority (ie by way of an elongated box which linked to everything else). We wanted to somehow illustrate that it should permeate through all other issues.

6. Summary and conclusion

6.1 Reflections on key themes.

Paul has heard:

  • About the need for Māori to be involved at governance, management and regulatory levels - systems need to have Māori in them, overseeing systems operating, standard setting, monitoring and compliance
  • About Standards - science based measures and historical observations on the status of the catchment - biological outcome measures - there needs to be a more integrated view of these measures
  • Fundamental failure of consultation processes
    • - it has been about mitigation instead of a different conversation earlier - with Māori as landowner, and developer of the resource, and Māori as kaitiaki, and how Māori manage competing values
    • Institutionalised disempowerment and examples of that
  • The concerns about scope - rural/urban
    • (Jane clarified that she spoke from the perspective of Ngāti Whātua, we have urban and rural in our rohe, and the pressure that creates)
  • The education need
    • A focus on education, conservation, restoration, and regenerative capacity, and the importance of educating young people.
    • Elected local leaders need a bit of education on how to engage with Māori.
  • Technological solutions
  • Views around human health
  • Paul participates in decision making for SFF, and he has heard what Jane said

6.2 George Ria

Acknowledges that outcomes take time (eg te reo, references and acknowledgement of treaty)as a result of the work of people pushing these issues.

Decisions in the past have been made by those who sit only in the economic quadrant in terms of the sustainable development model, the other values and interests have been overridden.

And Māori are also partly responsible for some of the effects on our waterways. This programme seeks for more balance.

6.3 William Kapea

In response to Paul's collection of thoughts, William does not think that the summary captures well enough the need for national water standards. I want you to go away with the clear message that we need national water standards more than we need water allocation.

Paul acknowledges this.

6.4 Closing kōrero - Takutai Moana Wikiriwhi

It is important for Ngāti Whātua and Pākehā to work together, this fulfils the prophecies of our tūpuna - but it important for our views to be heard.

Pākehā have chopped down our trees, and brought a lot of things that have contaminated our country. What we originally had is already gone, the reality is that we are living in a different way. Hopefully you can put our views into practice so that we can all benefit.

Closing karakia 1pm

Last updated: 25 November 2008